Clearning Mine Fields

Actually, clearing the fields themselves isn't really my issue. I usually play Advent and their Illuminators and masses of strike craft do the job very nicely. The problem is when my enemy places the fields right at the edges of gravity wells, right where my ships are going to come in.

 

How do I get around this? Can I send in a few ships that will trigger most of the mines? Is there a way to (temporarily) neutralize the mines as soon as my fleet comes out of phase space? If there's no way around this and you must simply waltz in to a giant minefield and lose a third of your fleet the second you enter a system, how are mines not completely broken?

22,395 views 12 replies
Reply #1 Top

Can I send in a few ships that will trigger most of the mines?
End of quote

Yup; a mix of flak frigates and scouts work best, since surviving scouts will "reveal" nearby mines and surviving flaks will blast them.  Those unit types also offered the most HP for the least cost.

Is there a way to (temporarily) neutralize the mines as soon as my fleet comes out of phase space?
End of quote

Only way to neutralize a mine is to destroy it.

If there's no way around this and you must simply waltz in to a giant minefield and lose a third of your fleet the second you enter a system, how are mines not completely broken?
End of quote

Look before you leap, and don't send a massive swarm of units into a waiting minefield.  Most minefields can be avoided by jumping at the right angles, and even those that can't be avoided can usually be detonated by a small force of units sent ahead of the main fleet.

Reply #2 Top

I know that you guys love this game, probably more than I do, but...well...

Don't you think that's a little dumb? That instead of a proper countermeasure in one form or another, the only effective way "around" a minefield that's got the edge of the gravity well covered is through it...and you have to sacrifice valuable ships to do it? A Starbase is a Starbase, you take it out or it beats on you. You blow it up and that's all there is to it.

But mines...alternative/indirect defensive measures that have the potential to be incredibly devastating should ALWAYS have a counter, not "see if 4 scouts and 10 flack frigs is enough, if not, please retry..."

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh and at this point I realize I'm exaggerating my point but I feel that in very nearly every aspect, Sins is a supremely well designed game. Like, recently I played Supreme Commander 2 and was just in shock at the mindless clickage that composes nearly the entire "strategy" element of that RTS. Sins is so much better, so much more than that...

The fact that so much careful thought and patient, prudent planning goes into even the most basic of sessions, I can't help but feel that "run some ships into those mines!" is comparatively drastically shallow for this game...and it makes me a sad panda...

Reply #3 Top

 

Move the mine-clearing ships PAST the edge of the grav well, as far as they can, this way they will emerge far ouside the grav well, where mines simply cannont be placed. then have them get to work.

problem solved.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting SliderFury, reply 2

The fact that so much careful thought and patient, prudent planning goes into even the most basic of sessions, I can't help but feel that "run some ships into those mines!" is comparatively drastically shallow for this game...and it makes me a sad panda...
End of SliderFury's quote

sometimes strategy is finese and sometimes strategy is brute force, mines are brute force pure and simple

Reply #5 Top

the only effective way "around" a minefield that's got the edge of the gravity well covered is through it...and you have to sacrifice valuable ships to do it?
End of quote

Tally up the amount of $$$ someone needs to spend to actually build that many mines.  Honestly, he's the one getting ripped off compared to how little I have to sacrificed to get a breach.  Heck, if my units come out of phase space in a lucky position, I might not actually set anything off (remember, I only have 10 or so units sent in, so they won't trigger that many mines) and the enemy fleet will have to deal with them before they rip a big hole in the minefield.

Units die in battle.  Capital ships die in battle.  Once you learn its weaknesses, you can "game" the AI for easy military victories, but against a human player casualties are simply a reality.  Sacrificing units is par for the course.

Personally, I think mines a little on the weak side for how much they cost.  Advent mines are a pain in the ass to deal with, but more in an annoying way rather than overpowering way.

A Starbase is a Starbase, you take it out or it beats on you. You blow it up and that's all there is to it.
End of quote

Gross oversimplification.  The starbase could take out a sizeable chunk of your fleet, or the fleet could go around the starbase and try to hit secondary targets.

Reply #6 Top

Mines are a mere inconvenience...as mentioned earlier, the cost of placing them generally is not worth it for the defender.  However, some players do use them...more importantly, the AI uses them.  Since high difficulty AIs have more resources than you, that mines aren't cost effective is really a moot point.

There are many ways to get around a minefield, and many have already been mentioned.  First and foremost, scout out where you want to send a fleet.  You can use a scout ship, preferably with the sensor probe ability (must be researched).  Another way is to use the clairvoyance ability on the Revelation Battlecruiser.  Since you play Advent, this is a possibility.  Though there is much debate on this, I HIGHLY recommend having at least one Revelation for the clairvoyance in any multiplayer game.

The simplest way to defeat mines is, as suggested earlier, to use scouts and anti-strikecraft ships.  However, this is slow and only works if the enemy does not have a fleet in the gravity well...something you will only get away with against the AI.

As I think you may have implied earlier, the Illuminators are great against mines...using deceptive illusion, you can wipe out a minefield with your clones and take zero losses.  However, this requires activating the ability on each individual ship, since they won't activate it unless an enemy is nearby.  Against a human player, this can be too time consuming, though it is extremely successful and can be pulled off if you are fast with a mouse (I recommend unstacking ships in the empire tree).  Keep in mind that if the Illuminators are in a fleet, the clones will not automatically join the fleet and tend to stay in front of the real ships, so selecting the clones with click and drag should be easy.

Of course, when you are under pressure to carry out an attack quickly, destroying the mines is likely not an option, especially without Illuminators.  The best route is to avoid them.  There are two parts to this.  First, as mentioned earlier, before you jump, have you ships position themselves outside your gravity well.  That way, after they complete the jump, they will be on the edge of the enemy gravity well.  When your ships jump in, immediately cancel all orders so they don't move into the mine field by accident.  Also, under fleet tactics, tell your ships to "Hold Position" (bottom left button under fleet tactics) so that they don't try to chase after enemy ships (and stray into the mines).  The second part is going around the minefield.  Simply moving ships back and farther from the planet helps, and then move around the minefield.  Be wary, as ships may move FORWARD and turn in an arc instead of pivoting to face another direction.  Again, this is slow, and likely not a good option.  Your other choice, and by FAR the best, is to move OVER or UNDER the minefield.  Using z-axis controls, have your ships go upward, following the edge of the gravity well until they are sufficiently above or below the mines...then move them where they need to be.  If the enemy has the mines amongst their structures, fleet, or planet, just make sure your ships stay in their "higher" orbit.  You probably want your ships to "Hold Position" under fleet tactics during this. 

If you are not familiar with z-axis control, you will need to set a hotkey for it (there is no default).  Under hotkeys, find "Global Controls" and set "z-axis control" to whatever you like (I use Z).  To move a fleet up or down, click the movement button (green arrow) or press D (the default hotkey for moving).  Your ships will now move if you LEFT click instead of the normal RIGHT click while the fleet is selected.  To move them in 3 dimensions, hold the z-axis control button and click where you want your ships to go.  Yellow lines will show you where you are going and will "shadow" where you will be above/below in reference to the normal plane that battles and construction take place in. 

 

Reply #7 Top

an underhanded method to "Neutralize"mines would be the vasari's Phase Out Hull ability on the marauder or the scout's phasic cloaking, but be quick to trigger it.  With the scout, bring flak in RIGHT behind the scout, say, 3 seconds, so the mines are revealed and blowed up before detonation.  Only works with lots of flak(6+ minimum) and perfect timing.

-Twilight Storm

Reply #8 Top

Your other choice, and by FAR the best, is to move OVER or UNDER the minefield.
End of quote

 

I thought about this just a few hours before I came and read this. Haven't had a chance to try it. Would it be possible to combine this idea with the suggestions to move my fleet outside the actual gravity well so that they come into the enemy gravity well well in front of the minefield? 

In other words, can I move my ships a ways up on the z-axis and then have them phase jump from there, entering the enemy gravity well above the minefield?

 

This is what I mean though. If there is an effective way, such as the methods above, to totally bypass a minefield, then mines are useless. They should have a workable, in-game counter, not a cheat to avoid them entirely, or a requirement to sack ships to them. A few people made points that losing ships is part of the fight. I understand what you're saying. But if I know the mines are there, there should be some option to get rid of them without losing ships. Say an Iconus Guardian can be set to activate it's repulsor ability upon the detection of mines, and it works on them. So you send in a scout or two and a couple of guardians and as soon as they come out of phase space, repulsor triggers and the mines get pushed away before they can detonate. Your scouts and gaurdians are then exposed, so an enemy fleet might take them out before the rest of your forces arrive. That's a logical risk factor. And it makes sense within the context of combat.

Mines in real life aren't detonated by people running into them. If one KNOWS the mines are there, steps are taken to remove them without losing anyone. It may be costly or time consuming, and of course is dangerous, but it doesn't involve suicide.

 

I'm hammered my only moderately applicable point into the ground by now lol. But all I'm trying to say is, when everything else about this game feels so smart and slick and polished and appropriate to me, something like a complete lack of an indirect way to deal with an indirect defense just seems...lazy. And to clarify, a starbase or a beam plat is a direct form of defense. They come after you can attack you, mines just sit there until you get close enough. So there's no way I could ever call the brute force. And as such, they should be able to be dealt with in a manner other than brute force. Or grav-well cheating.

Maybe I'm just impossible to satisfy on this issue. I would mod something into the game to deal with this if I knew how.

Reply #9 Top

Your other choice, and by FAR the best, is to move OVER or UNDER the minefield.
End of quote

 

I thought about this just a few hours before I came and read this. Haven't had a chance to try it. Would it be possible to combine this idea with the suggestions to move my fleet outside the actual gravity well so that they come into the enemy gravity well well in front of the minefield? 

In other words, can I move my ships a ways up on the z-axis and then have them phase jump from there, entering the enemy gravity well above the minefield?

 

This is what I mean though. If there is an effective way, such as the methods above, to totally bypass a minefield, then mines are useless. They should have a workable, in-game counter, not a cheat to avoid them entirely, or a requirement to sack ships to them. A few people made points that losing ships is part of the fight. I understand what you're saying. But if I know the mines are there, there should be some option to get rid of them without losing ships. Say an Iconus Guardian can be set to activate it's repulsor ability upon the detection of mines, and it works on them. So you send in a scout or two and a couple of guardians and as soon as they come out of phase space, repulsor triggers and the mines get pushed away before they can detonate. Your scouts and gaurdians are then exposed, so an enemy fleet might take them out before the rest of your forces arrive. That's a logical risk factor. And it makes sense within the context of combat.

Mines in real life aren't detonated by people running into them. If one KNOWS the mines are there, steps are taken to remove them without losing anyone. It may be costly or time consuming, and of course is dangerous, but it doesn't involve suicide.

 

I've hammered my only moderately strong point into the ground by now lol. But all I'm trying to say is, when everything else about this game feels so smart and slick and polished and appropriate to me, something like a complete lack of an indirect way to deal with an indirect defense just seems...lazy. And to clarify, a starbase or a beam plat is a direct form of defense. They come after you can attack you, mines just sit there until you get close enough. So there's no way I could ever call the brute force. And as such, they should be able to be dealt with in a manner other than brute force. Or grav-well cheating.

Maybe I'm just impossible to satisfy on this issue. I would mod something into the game to deal with this if I knew how.

Reply #10 Top

sorry for the d/p

Reply #11 Top

Okay, clarification number two.

 

I realize starbases and plats don't ACTUALLY come after you, the point I was making was that, once you are in range of them, they attack you and keep attacking you till one of you is dead. Mines just blow up and then they're gone. I've seen mines detonate and not actually damage any of my ships.

Unless they are poorly placed, one will generally always want to eliminate all defenses in a grav well that can directly attack you (plats, starbases, hanger Ds), unless of course your're just trying to take out the planet itself really quick and then bounce.

If you get around a minefield, you can safely ignore even until after you've colonized the enemy world. That's indirect defense to me, and once again, just like direct defense has a direct counter (attack it and blow it up), indirect defense should have an indirect counter. Just my 15 1/2 cents...

Reply #12 Top

If you move your ships up or down while in a gravity well, and then phase jump, your ships will converge back onto the normal plane of movement...you can't jump into a gravity well already above or below the mines.  Personally, I agree with you...using underhand things like z-axis control (which depending on who you ask is seen as underhand) is really not how the game was designed...the current design for dealing with mines is scout ships...your fleet has to sit there in the gravity well, waiting for the mines to be cleared, which buys the defender time to get their fleet there...

Of course, they don't really end up working out like that, but it seems that was the intent.