Really?  Jafo, I didn't think you were born yesterday. 

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15596

I wasn't.

I also didn't say "all corporations pay all the taxes they are obliged to" as I am sure you will concede is mindlessly naive, as is the premise that alternatively since corporations are/must be so bad and evil and shirking responsibility that all 'little people' must be noble and right and concientious tax payers.

Nope...not born yesterday....but not myopic, either.

Nope, it was a man with a pipe in a Bentley.

That's debatable!  Media magnate Kerry Packer openly bragged that he paid fewer taxes than his employees on the lowest incomes.  That's it, you see, the wealthy can pay accountants to minimise their tax bills to almost nothing... too often leaving the lion's share to the average income earner.

Yes, and I well imagine the Australian government would actively pursue any actual 'pirates' operating within its jurisdiction, but when it comes to prosecuting illegal file downloaders, the general consensus in our courts is that the RIAA and such can go and get stuffed... that our ISP's are NOT internet police, but service providers, and thus should not be expected to enforce file sharing restrictions or penalties on users... as was determined in the recent RIAA case against iinet Australia. 

Thank f**k I gave up, then!!!  Cos I'm one of the poor bastards who couldn't afford the medical bills, not on top of all those effing taxes and exorbitant tobacco prices.  Besides, if I'm to undergo any form of cleaning, ethnic or otherwise, I'll buy my own soap and scrub up myself.

Stealing, don't do it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The government hates competition.

I think the main issue here has nothing to do with piracy being right or wrong.  Do companies have a reasonable right to go after people for pirating their stuff? But the fact of the matter is, the punishment does not fir the crime.  People like to compare piracy to other forms of theft but the fact of the matter is those who are stealing things physically get the better end of the deal.  So you stole a shirt that was values at 20$. Slap on the wrist.  You downloaded a movie who's DVD is worth 20$? Oh hell no, first we will threaten you with a $150K and use that to force you into paying a smaller (but still insane) $1500. Want to fight it? Sure but we have 50 lawyers on staff and can keep this in court until long after you are bankrupt.  More or less no one is willing to take that risk so the extortion continues.  Fine pirates but fine them for what they did.  Companies extorting $1500 out of people for a 20$ crime should be tried for extortion, after all, it is a crime (well unless you have a lot of money anyway).

As I understand it the term piracy implies that the pirate is making money on the deal. The way this is structured people are getting this content for FREE no money exchanges hands unless you buy your movies from some jackass at the flee market. Any way 90% of the movies produced in the U.S.A. in the last 5 years have been mindless crap. There have been a few rare jewels but you have to dig through a lot of shit to find them, that is just my views on the sad state of film in the U.S.A. As far as the government in the U.S.A. getting involved, they have been bought and paid for since 1980, they just take our money and tell us to bend over. I think Rage said it best....

LoL nice tunes Jeff. Man, surprised the crap out of me seeing this old thread come back from the grave. Must be because it's getting cloaser to Halloween

Could be, I just heard some news that this persecution is going world wide, centered from Hollywood and I had to share my displeasure. I am making plans to take my tax dollars and leave this Theocratic country behind! Really it is all about money and who is not getting any for their crappy products. Sorry to piss and moan but this country is fucked!

No choice is not a choice!

 

Yup, the excessive greed of a handful of the rich and powerful will bring down any society/nation.

More people in the US needed to piss and moan a lot louder decades ago... cos now it's too late.

Anyone who could make a difference now has been bought and paid for.

More to the point, the rich and greedy created a false economy and it needs to be replaced

Your electronically manufactured economy, money that only exists on paper has to be replaced by manufacturing... tangible wealth.

Same here in Australia... the capitalist followed the US pattern and now we're paying for it, with millions of manufacturing jobs exported offshore to exploit cheap Asian labour.  Now we're mostly a service economy and much of the GDP exists purely on paper/in electronic figures.  And like in the US, anyone who could make a difference has been bought and paid for.

*deleted by poster*

(just realized how old this thread was and don't want to resurrect the debate, my bad)

It's not that old... and there have been recent contributions.... so if you have a comment to make feel free to post.

So let me get this straight... you believe that everything non-tangible in the world, no matter how much work went into it or whether it is movies/videos or music, that it should be free, am I understanding that right?  Nothing in life is free, nor will it ever be.  Millions of dollars are spent making these productions, paying workers, actors, singers etc. and selling their end result pays back the money spent during production, plus royalties to the performers and a little profit for the company itself.  In a lot of cases some of this money even goes to charities and such. This is the way of life, and just because these are not physical goods does not mean they should not be treated the same as going out and buying a cell phone, television set or whatever.  A lot of work goes into producing these things, and works of art too. For instance, I spend hours and hours making a Windowblinds theme and decide I want to sell it because I need the money.  Someone then purchases it and distributes it all over the world for free.  In your opinion that is just fine, and believe me, your opinion is wrong.  Grow up will you please, what you are saying disgusts me.   

If you truly believe what you say, then you and all those who believe like you need to seek some professional help IMO.

 

Yes, they should be treated the same.  No one should be hit for $150000 for downloading a hundred dollars of goods.  While companies need to be able to defend themselves, the level of extortion that was going on in this case was insane.  Pay is $1500 or we destroy your life.  We have more money to throw at this so you may as well bend over now.

So, if I understand correctly, you're not arguing that it's wrong...only the amount of the fine.

OK....I agree. The punishment (financial or other) should be in proportion to the offense...but the penalty should be

one that discourages others from stealing...because that's what it is. Plain and simple.

Exactly!  What these thugs are doing isn't even legal.... because it IS extortion.  It hasn't been legislated that a record/movie company can send its representatives to knock on anybody's door to demand money for alleged downloaded items.... and when a 57 y/o grandmother who doesn't even know how to use a computer, much less download songs, is persecuted to her grave it is criminal.

If a judge ordered that person A pay person B for illegal downloads of person B's intellectual property, fine... but when a movie/record company traces a download to a particular address, it does not have the right to send thugs around to bully whoever into paying large sums of money.  It is outside of the law and therefore no better than the hoodlums who run illegal 'protection' rackets.

If these entities want justice, let them take it through the proper channels in the civil court, the venue purposely created to resolve such issues.  I know one thing, if somebody without lawful authority came demanding shit at my door, they'd get something akin to the rough end of a pineapple shoved right up their clacker....

... then I'd really get started.

LightStar what I believe is that the actors and production people should get paid and they are! They are not the ones pushing this issue, it is the movie and music corporations  that are giving money to the politicians to make laws that guarantee their profits that is what I am bitching about. I hate thieves and lairs equally, unfortunately they are the ones making the rules that we have to live by.    

Since the debate has started up again anyway, here is what I I was going to say last night.

I don't know why I feel compelled to say this (I usually stay out of these arguments), but I do.  Sorry if some/all of this has been said I stopped reading around page 6 or 7.

First, to some extent some companies of the gaming industry aggravated piracy years ago.  I distinctly remember when demos stopped being normal (file size and internet speed problems started it I think).  I know some companies still put out demos (Stardock being one) but most games it's impossible to find a demo for, especially not when the game is new.  The marketing of many games is also incredibly misleading these days to the point where it can be challenging to even figure out what genre a game is, or how it will play (not saying it's impossible, just that it's not as obvious as it should be, and again Stardock doesn't do this you guys).  This creates the dilemma I've seen a lot of gamers complain about, and heard pirates use to justify piracy, that we have to buy blind.  I've bought games that I've sorely regretted buying because I thought they were something they weren't.  I've also bought games because I played a demo and realized "Hey, this is awesome."  Sins of a Solar Empire being one of them, and I just played the Demigod demo today and am thinking about picking that up.  Demos can sell games, games without demos can lose sales because people don't want to buy blind.  In some cases piracy may generate sales that way, which brings me to my next point.

My biggest issue with this whole debate of piracy has always been the bullshit arguments on both sides.  Pirates generally try to justify theft, which is obviously crap.  But the "big corporations" (seems to be the popular label) have terrible arguments as well.  Claims such as "our product X was pirated 500,000 times.  So we lost 500,000 sales."  That is crap for so many reasons.  I'm not going to speculate on percentages but it's safe to say a good chunk of those 500,000 downloads (not people) would not have been sales in the first place.  Some people pirate a game but wouldn't ever buy it because they don't really want it that bad, or don't actually have the money, or they're just pricks that way.  Still other people pirate a game and then DO buy it because they are using the pirated copy as a demo.  I'm not saying there's a lot of this, but the fact is it DOES happen occasionally regardless of how much some people deny it.  These people get counted twice in the statistics as a sale and a lost sale.  Then there's people who pirate the game, hate it and delete it right away.  Some of them would have returned the game and so that's not a lost sale, and it's my (limited) understanding that a returned product is worse than no sale at all because of shipping costs and what-not.  There's also people who pirate the game and live in a region where the game is not available for purchase and never will be for whatever reason.  Finally, there's people who download the pirated copy more than once for whatever reason.

Point is 500,000 downloads of a pirated copy is NOT 500,000 sales lost.  I don't know what it is actually as I've never done any studies on this but common sense says it's not.  So yes piracy = bad, but there are reasons it is so prevalent beyond simple "people are cheap and don't want to pay for stuff" even though I'm sure there's a good percentage of people that is true of and I think people who are genuinely interested in protecting IP need to find a way to properly assess what's going on. (yes I read the GOA report link on the early pages and it basically said "it's bad but we don't know how bad and neither does anyone else")

 

sAME OLD RUBBISH ARGUMENT.

No, 500,000 downloads of a pirated copy is NOT 500,000 sales "lost"....but 500,000 downloads SHOULD BE 500,000 SALES.

But it isn't.

There IS NO JUSTIFICATION for the 'giving away' of someone else's property.

That is theft.

End Of Story.

That sounds to simple and wise, but the issue of IP is way too broad to apply simple, wise advice.  The US plan for IP protection goes beyond the entertainment industry (which is a luxury commodity), to include necessity commodities like food (agriculture), medical, and military (security).

I can't say it any better than the way it has been presented here: http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bciclr/23_2/05_TXT.htm

"patents exert a negative cost on society as well: the more costly and restricted the access to information protected by patents, the more inefficient the market.  Conceptually, the idea of patents is antithetical to the concept of a liberal democracy founded on the ideal of public discourse and free access to, and transmission of, information...the expansion of intellectual property protections 'make[s] us ignore the common-sense knowledge that new intellectual creations are formed from pre-existing thoughts and ideas in a long chain stretching back into antiquity.' In other words, patent everything and there is no longer any common material from which to create." (underlying is my own emphasis)

When someone with the right kind of financial backing and legal representation patents a circle, then nobody else will be able to design anything that contains a circle, and anybody who NEEDS a circle is forced to purchase the circle from the well financed person who patented it.  This is extremely important when talking about things like GMO seeds, where developing countries are on the short end of the stick, and at the mercy of global corporations which could cause famine!

 

I agree, that is extortion. But if the person would have purchased it legally in the first place, the problem would have never occurred now would it?

My son pays anywhere from $.99 to $2.99 for a song, and $2.99 to $4.99 to watch a movie. I don't see why people cannot just do that in the first place.  It certainly would have prevented to music and movie industry from having to take the steps they are now.

I agree somewhat with what you are saying Karen, but this is a far cry from buying a song or getting a movie legally.  I do agree that patenting could go too far in some cases though, but I will always pay for what I want, and not steal it.

Are they HAVING to take those steps or are they seizing the opportunity, and exploiting legislation to pad their income?  Your son might be able to afford $3-$5 for his entertainment, but there are people in this world who don't even make that sort of money in day, and they have families to feed (which country might that be? Oh, I don't know...look at the label inside any piece of clothing sold at Wal-Mart to get an idea.)  What about people who are without a job right now.  Sure...they should just go without, I'm just coming up with ideas on why they might not "just pay for it in the first place."



Of course it is, and that's just my point!  When someone thinks about intellectual property, they immediately think about movies, games, and songs, and THAT'S where the danger is, because politicians are making laws which will be extremely hard to overturn once they're passed, and nobody is calling their politicians and saying "HEY...stop for a minute and think about all the implications of what these laws will do before passing them" because they all have tunnel vision, thinking it only applies to movies, games and music.  IT DOESN'T, and the people with deep pockets who will profit the most from this legislation don't want the general public to be aware of how far reaching the legislation will go; and the people who stand the most to lose don't really have a voice in this at all--developing countries who don't even have internet access and who are trying to eek out a living growing soybeans, etc. 

We know you're a good, honest man, Tom; but somebody has to look out for those who can't look out for themselves, and this plan is going to screw them royally. 

Thank goodness for YouTube Downloader. 

I don't use P2P Software to download songs and videos. That would be like asking unknown hackers & criminals to wreak havoc on my PC and saying "Yes! Go right ahead!".