ZehDon ZehDon

It's nice to see Pirates being held accountable.

It's nice to see Pirates being held accountable.

Jammie Thomas-Rasset, a single mother of four, was found liable by a jury on Wednesday of copyright infringement for using KaZaA peer-to-peer file-sharing network to download the songs over the internet.

She was ordered to pay $US62,500 ($A62,303.74) for each of the 24 songs, a total of $US1.5 million ($A1.5 million) dollars.

End of quote

Oh, shit, did I say being held accountable?  I mean having their lives ruined.  Haha, my bad.

$US62,500.00 per song.  I doubt the bands that recorded those 24 tracks made that much money off of their songs, excluding Concert ticket sales, of course.  I'm all for paying people for their hard work, however I'm also for letting the punishment fit the crime.  Placing someone under so much debt that they'll never outlive it doesn't seem like a fitting punishment to me.

836,091 views 312 replies
Reply #151 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 148
'euthanase'  ...no, why must everything be taken to an illogical extreme?  I mention free transport as an economic plus and you somehow extrapolate that to culling the infirm?
End of Jafo's quote

Because that is always the result of your kinds' brand of doing things. Your way of thinking is not logical or even rational. Even with CP you main concern turns out not to be justice or revenge, but costs. No body costs society more than the elderly or the infirm do and they give nothing back. Social security (Old age pension) really only covers the first few years or so, after that it is nothing more than welfare. And we all know just how much the Right-wing hates welfare.........

Reply #152 Top

:-"  

Reply #153 Top

Quoting Lantec, reply 149

Did you know that America's infrastructure is deemed to be around 70% unsafe?
 

Interesting statement. How do you quantify safe? What is the infrastructure difference between 70% unsafe and 50% safe?

Frankly, that sounds like a education industry scientist statement meant to justify next years grant(s) Or more likely an excerpt from a hollywierd documentary producer's sensationalist advertisment.

 

I'm a civil engineer so I'm aware that there are cases of aging infrastructure and it's possible to say quantify the number of bridges which require attention but I don't know how to quantify "safe"
End of Lantec's quote

 

http://apps.asce.org/reportcard/index.cfm?reaction=full&page=6

 

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_19_2/tsc_19_2_dams.shtml

Reply #154 Top

Quoting Lantec, reply 139

Ah, you mean like half the EU countries?
By all means....I notice people are just lining up to emigrate from the US to the EU.
End of Lantec's quote

They probably would if your media wasn't biased. I know many US citizens think countries like Sweden or Norway are like some half communist countries or something although by all the objective lists of best countries to live in they are in top 5 in the world each time while USA is usually around 10th place or 20th or less (you lost a lot of places during Bush rule).

 

Anyways, I see last 10 or more posts are completely crazy talking about nothing (statistics, money..). Maybe this topic needs to be renamed :D

Reply #155 Top

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 154



Quoting Lantec,
reply 139

Ah, you mean like half the EU countries?
By all means....I notice people are just lining up to emigrate from the US to the EU.


They probably would if your media wasn't biased. I know many US citizens think countries like Sweden or Norway are like some half communist countries or something although by all the objective lists of best countries to live in they are in top 5 in the world each time while USA is usually around 10th place or 20th or less (you lost a lot of places during Bush rule).

 

Anyways, I see last 10 or more posts are completely crazy talking about nothing (statistics, money..). Maybe this topic needs to be renamed
End of TorinReborn's quote

So what you are saying is people are not emigrating from the US to the EU because of the media and not how they feel about thier own quality of life and the want or meed to improve it?  Man you have to really watch out for the media, don't you? :S

 

 

Reply #156 Top

Well you probably need to look at my previous quote of lantec. Lantec basically stated that USA is the best country in the world and that the other guy can move out if he does not like it in USA(but it will not be better for him). So I decided to explain to him that the other guy can move to EU and have a much better life.

Reply #157 Top
TorinReborn, I am also from the US.  At the ripe old age of 61 and having been to a few places around the word I can pretty much say that, with a few exceptions, one's life is what they make of it. :O
Oh and I agree folks shouldn't put thier trust in the media and especially in those folks that always like to give you statistics.  Alot of the times when someone gives me statistics I hear 'Well I asked two of my friends and they said....'  :sun:
EDIT: Crap there went formatting again.
Reply #158 Top

Quoting Philly0381, reply 157
TorinReborn, I am also from the US.  At the ripe old age of 61 and having been to a few places around the word I can pretty much say that, with a few exceptions, one's life is what they make of it. 
Oh and I agree folks shouldn't put thier trust in the media and especially in those folks that always like to give you statistics.  Alot of the times when someone gives me statistics I hear 'Well I asked two of my friends and they said....' 
EDIT: Crap there went formatting again.
End of Philly0381's quote

I better not comment this. All I can say, people from most parts of Africa are surely not going to agree with you...

Reply #159 Top

There is no problem in commenting, we are all entitled to our opinion.  Now opinions are interesting how they are formed, some do it with actual knowledge some base it upon what they hear second hand. :sun:

I did leave myself an out by saying 'with a few exceptions'.   When we as individuals visit a different country and culture one of the things that we can not get away from is pre-judging or just judging thier quaility of life based upon ours.  It is normal and natural to think that everyone wants our quality or style of life, no matter where we come from.  Now I'm not talking about things like clean living conditions and basic freedoms.

 

Reply #160 Top

Quoting Philly0381, reply 159
There is no problem in commenting, we are all entitled to our opinion.  Now opinions are interesting how they are formed, some do it with actual knowledge some base it upon what they hear second hand.

I did leave myself an out by saying 'with a few exceptions'.   When we as individuals visit a different country and culture one of the things that we can not get away from is pre-judging or just judging thier quaility of life based upon ours.  It is normal and natural to think that everyone wants our quality or style of life, no matter where we come from.  Now I'm not talking about things like clean living conditions and basic freedoms.

 
End of Philly0381's quote

 

One interesting thing about a recent report stated that quality of life in the USA was one of the lowest in the West. The study was done by an American institution as well. It just goes to show that a high standard of living is no guarantee either.

http://www.workers.org/2008/us/inequalities_0731/

Reply #161 Top

Okay, so I checked out your link.  I looked for a reference to the American Institution that did the study.  You are not talking about the Workers World are you?  There was a reference to the United Nations.  I got the feeling that not a whole lot of analyzing went into the study.  I get a very directed slant to the article, didn't appear to look at all of the demographics or make up of all the people living in the U. S. i.e. Native Americans, Hispanics, Whites, etc.

This is why I made the comment above about statistics, the person putting them together can easily manipulate numbers to achieve what purpose they want.  Is the U.S. a perfect place to live, without a doubt no.  Is a good quality of live achievable in the U.S., yes.  Is the American still alive and well, you bet.

Now based upon you previous replies you will probably disagree, that's okay, I don't have a problem with that.  :sun:

 

 

Reply #162 Top

Re #151

No.

Costs are mentioned as it directly pertains to the OP.

MY 'main concern' re Capital Punishment is its non-use means killers are afforded life where-as their victims were not.

There IS no justice in that, and I am definitely NOT alone in that opinion.

As for the elderly and their 'cost', strangely enough it is their age that ENTITLES them to social support as they themselves have contributed likewise.

This is all about criminals, criminality and justice.

It has NOTHING to do with the aged [or infirm].

Reply #163 Top

MY 'main concern' re Capital Punishment is its non-use means killers are afforded life where-as their victims were not.

There IS no justice in that, and I am definitely NOT alone in that opinion.
End of quote

Indeed you're not alone in that opinion, yet there are errors in the process and that is incontestable, and death is final and irrevocable.

There is no solution apart from implementing the death penalty x years after the verdict....but even with that, errors are detected many years later with the discovery of new technologies.

I do not favor the death penalty for an additional reason: When it is implemented, the search for the other/correct perpetrator is totally abandoned because the thought of error is painful...and because there's no longer a reason to search. Therefore, the real miscreant escapes to kill again.

 

HOWEVER: The OP was about theft and a tough punishment for it. Too bad. She was offered a $5,000 settlement and refused... She can slave forever, and I don't particularly care. She did the crime and then brazenly stated ANY punishment would be too much as it would take food out her childrens' mouths. From the size of her, better it should come out of her mouth.

Too many words have been wasted on this thief already.

 

Reply #164 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 162

Re #151

No.

Costs are mentioned as it directly pertains to the OP.
End of Jafo's quote

It has been proven that it cost more to execute them than to keep them alive..... It is irrelevant what you want to believe.

 

MY 'main concern' re Capital Punishment is its non-use means killers are afforded life where-as their victims were not.

There IS no justice in that, and I am definitely NOT alone in that opinion.
End of quote

 

As I had said, you don't know what justice is. And more than proven this fact. You live in a Stone Age mentality. You maybe not be alone in that belief, but luckily you are in a shrinking minority. For the good of Humanity your kind will become extinct soon enough.

 

As for the elderly and their 'cost', strangely enough it is their age that ENTITLES them to social support as they themselves have contributed likewise.
End of quote

 

I had mentioned that as well. It only accounts for the first 5 years, after that its welfare. The infirm contribute nothing.

 

This is all about criminals, criminality and justice.

It has NOTHING to do with the aged [or infirm].
End of quote

It is when you think that money is more important than people.

 

 

Reply #165 Top

Quoting Philly0381, reply 161
Okay, so I checked out your link.  I looked for a reference to the American Institution that did the study.  You are not talking about the Workers World are you?  There was a reference to the United Nations.  I got the feeling that not a whole lot of analyzing went into the study.  I get a very directed slant to the article, didn't appear to look at all of the demographics or make up of all the people living in the U. S. i.e. Native Americans, Hispanics, Whites, etc.

This is why I made the comment above about statistics, the person putting them together can easily manipulate numbers to achieve what purpose they want.  Is the U.S. a perfect place to live, without a doubt no.  Is a good quality of live achievable in the U.S., yes.  Is the American still alive and well, you bet.

Now based upon you previous replies you will probably disagree, that's okay, I don't have a problem with that. 

 

 
End of Philly0381's quote

 

I kind of figured that I get this sort of questioning. Some just prefer a popular myth over an unpopular truth. This was all over the news not too long ago and many of these "questions" were answered than.

 

BTW, Of course I didn't mean Workers World. They're just one of many who reported it.

 

Also, where have you been living the passed few years? America is in the toilet now because of the right-wing. You almost went over the edge. It still maybe better than most other places to live, but in the West it is near the bottom in comparison, especially for your children. In other words while others may live in an outhouse, living in a solid gold toilet is still living in a toilet.

 

Now I'm going to leave this conversation at that since it has strayed way off course and became irrelevant...... If you don't like what I said I don't care. I only state reality. You're only ever going to get the real truth out of me.

Reply #166 Top

Scharchuk...it has NOT 'been proven' that execution is more expensive than incarceration, not by you or any other contributor to this thread.

If you wish to assert such please provide irrefutable evidence/case study.

First trolling comment.

"you don't know what justice is"

Second.  You base that solely on your interaction here on this site.

Reply #167 Top

:rofl:  

Reply #168 Top

A thought I had that makes me ponder:

"They levied $1.5 million judgements for petty theft and I said nothing, for I did not steal."

Edit: Clearly piss-poor timing on my part.

Reply #169 Top

Agreed, the personal attacks are getting old..

 

It costs $.74 for a bullet and $5000 for a funeral. Appeals are made by tons of convicts not just those on death row, so factoring in that cost as an expenditure of Capitol punishment "only" is ridiculous.

I only state reality. You're only ever going to get the real truth out of me.
End of quote

lol

Reply #170 Top

One last thing. When I turn 65 I'll get a full pension with all of its benefits and I paid NOTHING into it. Most likely it'll be at least three times what I get now on disability and I still have a higher quality of life than you do.. That's the thing, you get the same whether you paid into it or not. I get the same as someone who paid full premiums all of their adult life. Do you still don't want to Euthanize the elderly and infirm? The jokes on you.

Reply #171 Top

Do you still don't want to Euthanize the elderly and infirm?
End of quote

 

Just because you chose not to Be a part of the Contributing society, does not mean all are that way. My mother inlaw works with the disabled daily as they work at real jobs contributing to society. Many if not most of the elderly earned thier pensions and benefits, tho ur arguement has stirred thoughts of the euthanization of lazy sponges that refuse to contribute. :thumbsup:

Reply #172 Top

We all took this thread way from the OP.  Probably would be nice if we give it back.  Just saying. :S

Reply #173 Top

I've had a couple of goes at dragging it back again... only to see it deviate yet again.

One more...

Excessive penalty is only a viable description when compared to other acts/penalties.

You can choose to balance them two ways.

1 is to start with Murder [typically 20 years/life/whatever] and work backwards to slap on wrist for IP theft.

or

2. You can have a prohibitive penalty for IP theft and work UP to [obviously more] harsher penalty for murder...ie. Execution.

Those who see themselves as akin to the OP will root for option 1.

Option 1 will do nothing to alter people's understanding of the legitimate criminality relating to IP theft.

Option 1 will promote more instances of, or rather will do nothing to dissuade people from piracy, so it's useless.

If and when you have direct involvement with IP [your own] you will want to see some mechanism for its protection.

Is it harsh [the OP]?  Yes.

Is it 'just'?  Probably not in the current climate of leniency shown by the current Legal system.

Is THAT system flawed?  Yes.

Is there anyone on the planet who thinks it is NOT flawed?  Yes, however they will ALL be the very same criminals who have played the system and its flaws.

The greatest flaw?  The advantages afforded to those who can pay.

The 'poor bastard' will always be bastardised because he is poor.

THAT is a failing.

Reply #174 Top

:thumbsup:  

Reply #175 Top

Trying to punish piracy is like trying to order the tides around. New technology will be adopted, and people will use the most efficient and easy mechanisms to get the products they want. It is companies and governments that must adapt to this reality- organizations that can and will adapt to the new environment. America's intellectual property laws are simply too old and too random to make sense in the modern age.

As a result, they do little to profit artists and other forces behind creative works. Mostly, intellectual property gives profits to lawyers, and law firms. Organizations that exist only to enforce intellectual property, and thus wouldn't have to exist without intellectual property. As a deterrent, intellectual property has done almost nothing, but it still costs large sums of money and lowers the overall quality of the internet. As such, intellectual property laws should be immediately and completely eliminated.

As far as I can tell, there are two plausible results once piracy is legalized. The most likely result is that companies will find ways to still make as much in profits as they always have. Maybe just asking for donations will be enough. Maybe people will start having to pay for games before the games even start being produced (X amount of people would pledge to pay Y money and if enough money was pledged, everyone would be charged for the amount he pledged and the game would begin production.) It's difficult to tell how the free market would solve the issues without regulation, but every other technology in history that helped distribute art for cheaper to more people has led to a major expansion of artistic industry. The internet shouldn't be any different.

Alternatively, when intellectual property is eliminated, maybe major corporations won't be able to make enough money off of their art, and will be driven off the market. This isn't actually as disastrous as people make it out to be. People will still want high quality games, and lacking good artists people will turn to scientists who will supply higher quality computers at a faster rate given the improved demand for such machines. Free games made by individual hobbyists today are generally better than the biggest budget Atari games made in the past- this is because the technology behind them is so much better that a single programmer who is just trying to have fun, can surpass the efforts of large groups of programmers working a mere 30 years into the past. Such a result is a disaster for the companies currently operating today, but that is normal: change hurts those in power and opens up opportunities for those with the ability to take advantage of them. Profit motive is not actually necessary for the production of art.

 

With that said, my take on the prosecution of copyright offenders is twofold. From the point of view of enforcement, it's like hearing about the elections in Iraq- meaningless results from a meaningless war, that cannot possibly give humanity any form of actual benefit. An ongoing cost that we should stop paying whenever we're willing.

As for the person who ran afoul of piracy laws- basically, people have bad things happen to them all the time, so I'm not particularly more interested in victims of law enforcement compared to say, victims of drunk driving. However, some people seem to feel that either piracy victimizes companies or that simply breaking the law is pure evil in and of itself. Given that intellectual property laws have no actual reason to exist it's impossible for people to be victims of intellectual theft. If aliens in another dimension were interested in our art, I'm sure nobody would feel victimized to learn that they had been playing our games for years- IE, we accuse people not of an active crime, but of a passive act, or to be specific, intellectual theft accusation is a accusation of not doing something. It's reasonable applaud people who give their money to charities and game developers, and absurd to say either one is non-productive. However, not doing a good thing is VERY different from hurting someone else. In fact, most logic that demands that people must do the "right" thing is used by people who hate the game industry and feel that it's just a distraction from school, college and work, the "just" actions that people "should" be doing at all times.

As for the law being such a sacred object, most people routinely break the law, so the idea that a person is abnormally evil just because he breaks the law is absurd. A person cannot be in the bottom 50% of humanity by doing an act that more than 50% of humanity takes part in. That's not to say that most people break any particular law, but simply that once you take into account everyone who goes above the speed limit, everyone who doesn't perfectly follow safety regulations, everyone who litters, etc. you'll find that that covers most of America. Or, as Jesus put it so well "let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!"