Sedna's Silence-Heal Build Viability & Alternatives

(AKA Hedgie's Build Re-Evaluated)

from Demigod Forums

After 300 games played with Sedna, involving players as varied as both newbies and T1s, I have finally decided to formulate my opinion on a subject. Silence-Heal (or Blood-Silence, using Hedgie's terminology: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/388569) is extremely efficient in certain 3v3 matchups, especially when teamed up with 2 heavy-hitting assassins/quasi-assassins (Occ, some Oak builds). However, I find it much less reliable and inferior to other Sedna builds in 2v2, unless paired with a UB or, maybe, an Oak in a non-mirror match (though even in those combos, Blood-Tank and Blood-Pounce-Heal builds tend to perform significantly better). Moreover, most 3v3 matchups also call for at least some direct damage prior to levels 17+, and while Nature's Reckoning can compensate to a degree for going no-Pounce build, this compensation is: (1) unpredictable; (2) mediocre when focusing fire on a DG.

What I tend to do in most mid+ and above matches is a following variation of Pounce-Heal using BotF favor item:

1. Heal 1

2. HW 1

3. IG 1

4. Pounce 1

5. HW 2

6. Silence 1

7. Pounce 2 / Heal 2 when facing a general-heavy matchup or a Sedna mirror

8. Heal 2 / Counter Healing

9. Pounce 3 / Pounce 2

10. Heal 3

11. Pounce 4 / Pounce 3

12. Heal 4 / Pounce 4

13. MP 1

14. MP 2

15. MP 3

16. IG 2

17. IG 3

18. Silence 2 / Heal 4

19. Silence 3 / Silence 2

20. Life's Child / Silence 3

Short skill analysis:

The crucial Sedna skills are, IMHO: Healing Wind 2, Silence 1, Heal 3. This build tries to get them all ASAP (given mana regen limitations with one helm). While I agree with Hedgie Inner Grace in general is overrated, its first level is somewhat underrated in Hedgie's analysis. An ability to chase faster DGs at 6.3 y/s and +10 hps early game is a huge boost. In general, I follow Hedgie's double-interrupt system, it's just I prefer to leave Silence at level I and level up Pounce, since from my experience, it is a far more universally applicable skill. Don't get me wrong, Silence is great. Probably even a bit OP. But it's a reactive skill, a counter, a debuff. For getting a kill, I'd rather Silence for 3s and Pounce for 1000, than Silence for 4-5s and tickle the enemy DG with my laughable 400 dmg Pounce 1 (just try to compare the coefficients at levels 10-14: it's +150% efficiency increase for Pounce, and only +33% efficiency increase for Silence -- that said, I fully undersand such comparison should be taken with a grain of salt, it's not that linear). Sure, Pounce 1 used exclusively as an interrupt earned my team some kills on enemy DGs tryng to tp out, etc., so I'm not blind to its potential usefullness. Still, IMHO, it's better to help focused team fire with 1000 dmg each 4-5s, then Silence low-hp targets for 3s - usually, that's enough. Silence 2 + tp combo is N/A with this build, but I consider it less reliable than plain old sigiling and running away, so not a big deal (the main reason I consider it somewhat unreliable is it requires godly reaction and hand-eye coordination with that zoom out > wait for everyone to get into range > silence > tp to allied structure routine). 

Items: 

Bishop and Siege Demolisher idols go without saying. I tend to forego Nature's Reckoning, unless facing shameless minion-users or unless my team is on the offensive and needs more pushing power than survivability. Which usually leaves me with 3 armors, Unbreakables > J-Treads and Vlemish > Hungarling. I get Orb of Defiance sometimes, but that's really not a necessity. HP-stacking Sedna can get away alive by just sigiling whenever absolutely necessary and receiving those badass HW-enhanced priest/bishop heals (and I rarely use more than 3-4 sigils per match, while OoD = 7.5 sigils cost-wise). I agree with Hedgie the Girdle is probably the best artifact for Sedna (especially when paired with Nature's Reckoning), but I find the Orb of Veiled Storms to be quite strong on her, as it gives her decent anti-creep AoE (without Uberfix it doesn't deal armor-immune damage, so anti-creep only), while also compensating for her main weakness (poor AA rate) and really carrying her hp regen rate through the roof (it's equivalent to having another HW 2 active). The main attraction, of course, is it's 5k cheaper than the Girdle is.

Background:

At first, I tried hard to emulate Hedgie's build - with mixed results (usually positive, as it's a great build designed by a great Sedna player). I don't claim the build outlined above (I won't call it mine, because I'm sure OMG_something invented this exact build during beta testing) is better than Silence-Heal. Let's put it this way: I believe that for people having less experience and less skill/precision with Sedna than my master (heh) Hedgie has, this Blood Pounce-Heal variation provides a more stable and a more reliable option. In other words, my main critique of Silence-Heal is that it's too much Hedgie-tailored, not that it's bad or unsuccessful per se. Anyway, I'm aware I'm still light years away from Hedgie's skill level, and I hope no one (Hedgie himself included) will consider this post overly pretentious. 

2,424 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Wow, your build sucks, dude! Get some skill!

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

However, I find it much less reliable and inferior to other Sedna builds...
End of quote

In 2v2 Sedna builds, dropping pounce for an early Inner Grace is the reason you're seeing better performance. Pounce is nearly useless in a Sedna mirror (in 2v2... 3v3 there are two other demigods you'll need to pounce), and being 5% faster enables you to engage and disengage at will... something the other, slower, Sedna has nothing to do to stop you short of getting Wyrmskin gloves instead of NR. Basically, Inner Grace is underpowered in all matchups except against Sedna. 

It's also always been my opinion that for a lower-level Sedna player, you should invest 1 point into Inner Grace because it gives you more wiggle room, especially early game. However, the "sigil and run away" won't work against good, aggressive players. 5% speed isn't enough to outrun a gank, especially when the gank includes any of Oak, UB, Erebus or DA.

Though against a DA-orientated gank teams I do tend to go Heal > HW > IG > SAVE > HW + IG > Heal > Heal > CH > Silence > Heal because it enables you to outrun him most of the time, even if he is clever and Warp Strikes to a monk. And Silence won't save you against those teams because of Chain Stuns usually. 

...  unless paired with a UB or, maybe, an Oak in a non-mirror match
End of quote

The vast majority of my end-career 2v2 games were with Thundercles, who does a hybrid BotS TB (usually). We both somewhat tailor our builds to capitalize on the Sed/TB synergy.

it's +150% efficiency increase for Pounce, and only +33% efficiency increase for Silence
End of quote

Although, yes, your damage from pulling 2 points from Silence into pounce, your mana consumption vastly shift. 

5 seconds of Silence + 400 Pounce: 1400 mana

3 seconds of Silence + 1000 Pounce: 1575 mana

You only get a 33% longer duration, then a 25% increase of timeby leveling up Silence II and III, so you do get a little bit of diminishing returns. However, the mana efficiency of Silence by leveling it up is amazing. 800 -> 900 -> 1000 mana. So you're paying only 12.5% more for 33% longer and then 11% more for 25% longer. 

Compare to Pounce II, III, IV. You pay for 31% more for 50% more damage, then you pay 24% more for 33% more damage, then you pay 19% more for 25% more damage. Yes, Pounce is getting gradually more mana-efficient as you level it but not at the same rate of Silence.

Put another way, Pounce I is 1:1 in terms of damage:mana. Pounce IV is 1.29:1 (29% more efficient, for 3 skill points, all of which compete with other skills for priority)

Silence is .00375:1 in terms of seconds:mana. Silence III is .005:1 (33% more efficient, for 2 skill points, only which level 2 competes with other skills for priority)

Finally, note that it is actually TWO pounces, due to Magnificent Presence cooldown drop. So it's really 800 damage + 5 seconds for 1800 mana. Or, I can pounce at the start and hold my second pounce so I have an interrupt for a lock or a port. 

With only 3 seconds of Silence and no MP, if you don't kill them they can just port out if you pounce. Finally, at level 10 and on it's VERY hard to fall below the 400 mana needed for a level one Pounce. So you are the "interrupt bitch" of the team. Leveling up Pounce can put you into a position where you don't have the mana for it. 

I'm not judging your assessment and before I left I started doing a very similar build (Heal > HW > Pounce > Heal > (5) HW II > Silence > Heal III > CH > Pounce > (10) Silence > Pounce > Pounce > MP > (15) Silence > MP > MP > Heal IV > IG > IG > IG).

I'm merely bringing some math to the table to challenge a few of your statements. 

 

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

I cannot really challenge any of your conclusions. Hard to deny the obvious: Silence-Heal surely has its great advantages over any other Sedna build. It's an intelligent and flexible Sedna expert build. My main ussue with it is that, indeed, you have to be an expert to pull it off, as it's naturally quite demanding personal skill-wise. A somewhat 'dumber' build, but both safer/less mana-intensive early game and a decent damage-dealer, can end up being more reliable for less experienced Sedna players or just for people whose teammates have a somewhat vague idea how to play with Sedna on the team. Hell, even Pacov and Orcun went Pounce-heavy builds during those mirror UB-Sed-Occ tourney matches. 

The cardinal point at which many otherwise experienced and skilled players fail is their firm belief that Sedna is almost untouchable under any circumstances. I know it surely looks like that when even a moderately skilled Sedna player like me techs the right passives, buys the right gear and micromanages the monks when, say, holding hp flag: 95% of the time, she never heals herself. However, they somehow think this kind of almost permanently full health bar is Sedna's natural state that can be preserved while on the offensive. So yes, I've heard people criticizing me for not being able to hold a portal vs enemy Rook 2 levels above me + giant/cata wave: "WTF?! You ran away with 200 hp? [Var.: You died?] You are Sedna, dammit!". 

I'm merely bringing some math to the table to challenge a few of your statements. 

Hehe, I suck at math, though I can surely draw the right conclusions when presented with mathematical analysis. That lop-sided percentile efficiency comparison was a lame attempt to provoke you to do some dirty work for me ;)

 

 

 

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

I <3 pounce builds. Its so awesome getting pounce 2 at 4 but not pouncing the enitre game until that point to get a kill. Killed a few pros that way :D

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

Yes, those things always work. For example, I've used a modified version of your pure Ooze build while laning vs Spit/Ooze hybrids with great success. I'm quite sure any T1 hybrid UB would tear me to pieces in no time, but with mids-mids+ it worked and was quite entertaining. The 2 differences are: (1) I use Symbol of Purity instead of Blood: well, yeah, -550 hp early on, but neutralizing hybrid's biggest damage source is a greater benefit (not to menion the frustration it causes); (2) I take Spit 1-4 instead of Bestial Wrath 1-4 late game. Now, the trick is not to spit until the kill opportunity presents itself: no one expects pure Ooze to spit all of a sudden, so enemy UB will frequently fight until he's reduced to very low hp, as he feels he's safe if he gets out of melee range using J-Treads -- then it's Spit > late game kill, which can be super-crucial.

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

and now for a pointless off topic comment... wonder why I can talk until I'm blue in the face about coming up with crazy magical coin pouch builds but am not interested in talking sedna strategy... I'm sure there's plenty to talk about here, of course.  Strange is pacov indeed.  Anyway, I'm reading at the very least :)

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting OMG__IN1, reply 5
Yes, those things always work. For example, I've used a modified version of your pure Ooze build while laning vs Spit/Ooze hybrids with great success. I'm quite sure any T1 hybrid UB would tear me to pieces in no time, but with mids-mids+ it worked and was quite entertaining. The 2 differences are: (1) I use Symbol of Purity instead of Blood: well, yeah, -550 hp early on, but neutralizing hybrid's biggest damage source is a greater benefit (not to menion the frustration it causes); (2) I take Spit 1-4 instead of Bestial Wrath 1-4 late game. Now, the trick is not to spit until the kill opportunity presents itself: no one expects pure Ooze to spit all of a sudden, so enemy UB will frequently fight until he's reduced to very low hp, as he feels he's safe if he gets out of melee range using J-Treads -- then it's Spit > late game kill, which can be super-crucial.
End of OMG__IN1's quote

Symbol of Purity <3 

 

I use it on Oak (against a UB) and UB in all-assassin games. And in 2v2 Sedna mirrors ... 

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

@hedgie:

What is the best Sedna build to use when teamed up with Rook and Fire TB in 3v3? Cape, I guess (provided Rook goes Renewal)? It's a great favor, the problem is its limited aura radius (8) requires me to be really close to Rook's arse. Curiously enough, helm auras (Vlemish, Hungarlng) are huge (20) for some reason.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

I don't like sharing lanes with a Rook, I think it's a waste of a demigod choice (Queen, Erebus and Oak are so much better with Rook). 

That said, I have played around with Cape of Plentiful Mana. I do really like it and I think it's a really good way to boost your Rook, especially if they go Staff of Renewal. Work in an early point of MP and don't get Counter-healing at level 8 (since you're hiding in his towers it's mostly useless). 

You have to be extremely careful, however, because you're going to be very low HP. For this reason, Cloak of Night can be better. If gives you a nice large mana pool to keep your Rook alive (and most teams will try to kill slow-old-Rook a lot), and you can Heal -> Blink without putting yourself at too much risk, whereas if you go Cape you're much more likely to be focused and melted. 

Basically, with the team (a Fire TB in particular) a Pounce CoN build is probably going to be the best. Fire Aura makes Pounce helluva lot better. Your team will lack interrupts, especially since you won't be getting Silence early on, but you'll have a lot of damage. You may want to prioritize heal more than Pounce (so Heal > HW > Pounce > Heal > HW II > Pounce > Heal > Pounce > Silence > Pounce), espiecially if you're fighting against big debuff demigods).

For items, get Plenor instead of NR. NR is useless with/against Rook and with a heavy pounce and heal you'll need the larger pool. 

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

TY, I'll try both options.