Probably add another research tree just for Cap upgrades. That would probably work for upgrading every single cap ship independently.

I've been doing some plugging in spreadsheets and have the following observations.

My preference would be for a level 5 battleship to start to outclass a similar fleet supply of Heavy frigates. A level 10 Battleship should significantly outclass a corresponding fleet supply of Heavies in dps and durability.

A level 1 Kol Battleship compared to 50 fleet supply of Heavies

• does 50% dps all banks.
• does 25% forward dps.
• has 57% hull.
• has 41% shield.
• Capital Armor (5) versus Very Heavy (5).

A level 5 Kol Battleship compared to 50 fleet supply of Heavies

• does 77% dps all banks.
• does 34% forward dps.
• has 68% hull.
• has 64% shield.
• Capital Armor (7.25) versus Very Heavy (5).

A level 10 Kol Battleship compared to 50 fleet supply of Heavies

• does 104% dps all banks.
• does 54% forward dps.
• has 80% hull.
• has 86% shield.
• Capital Armor (9.5) versus Very Heavy (5).

Capital ships will also increase hull restore rate and shield restore rate from 1.5 and 3 to 2.5 and 5 respectively. Heavy frigates have a base of 1 for hull restore and 2.5 for sheild restore.

The issue with that sometimes is getting them there.

If we're going to determine a "break-even" level where battleships match heavies, we should probably compare this against the current performance of carrier caps.  50 command in carriers provides you with ~7.5 squads, and carrier capital ships only surpass this mark at level 10.  However, carrier capital ships have other advantages, including not requiring antimatter for unit replacement and (of course) special abilities.  I think we want battleships to mirror this; surpass the heavies at about level 10, but field other advantages that make them superior in different ways.

Broken record, I know, but this is exactly why I love the move speed solution; it gives the capital ships a completely different angle.

I enjoy the speed solution as well, its just not enough.That's why I like to add in a second set of banks on the broadsides of battleships. With speed this allows battleships to get stuck in fast, fire at multiple ships and then pull out. Kind of like this.

Some would say that this would make the battleship a tad über but in perspective considering the cost they should be a tad über. Just keep the hp the same (wouldn't mind a slight increase in armor but that is IMHO ) and you still have the ability to bring it down if the other player isn't paying attention.

Well, that's the reason that SC rule in naval warfare. If you're smart, you have use SC to bring down a nearly defenseless enemy. If the other person is smart, they spend resources on a cloud of flak frigates. Too bad we can't set formations.

Btw, love the Star Trek demonstration. Surprisingly apt.

Thank you, its exactly how I have always though of battleships in Sins.

Yeah, formations would be nice, as well as having a bit more in the anti-SC department. Mind you, leave room for the need for flak but having it installed on the caps would be nice. Beyond abilities that is.

I think I made a post about that earlier in the thread. But maybe I wasn't clear on the non-ability thing.

Based on my calculations Carrier capitals have the potential to surpass carriers around level 4 and do surpass at level 5 from a raw dps output plus they have no AM restrictions.

Halcyon (Level 4): 7.45 command points (5.45 base + 2 drone upgrades), 45 base dps (left/right) + 15% cooldown for fleet (2 upgrades)
Halcyon (level 5): 9 command points (6 base + 3 drone upgrades), 48 base dps (left/right) + 15% cooldown for fleet (2 upgrades)

Skirantra (Level 4): 5.45 base + sustained 7-9+ strikecraft with 2 SB upgrades, 28 base dps, 2 upgrades Repair
Skirantra (Level 5): 6 base + sustained 9-12+ strikecraft with 3 SB upgrades, 30 base dps, 2 upgrades Repair

Sova (Level 4): 5.45 base, sustained 1-3 missile turrets 2 battery upgrades, 44 base dps, 2 upgrades heavy strikecraft
Sova (Level 5): 6 base, sustained 1-3 missile turrets 3 battery upgrades, 47 base dps, 2 upgrades heavy strikecraft

I don't discount the speed adjustments. I think they are also a critical element to making capital ships more viable. I don't want indestructable capital ships either, but the battleship should atleast have a role in front line combat which includes a boost to it's dps which could be accomplished with multiple banks and/or an increase in it's raw dps output.

Don't count special abilities, ZombieRus.  All capital ships get special abilities that make them awesome, this is their primary selling point.  The point is to look at their base performance before specials are applied.

I would generally agree. I wouldn't mind seeing anti-SC added as a non-ability, but keep it moderate and maybe not equipped on the Marza or Kol. Then I would get rid of the Kol's flak burst, seeing that between that and the shielding it just sucks up all the AM.

Ok, fair enough... I don't really agree with this opinion but it's worth doing the math.

The break even point for a Carrier Capital to a Carrier Cruiser is LEVEL 5. Since we are only looking at base performance the 6 strikecraft plus the carrier capitals own dps makes this an even wash. Additionally in battles that 6 strikecraft is worth more than 7 carrier cruiser strikecraft due to AM requirements.

What you are also noticing about a level 10 Capital Carrier is the diminishing returns it has after leveling up past level 5. In other words a Capital Carrier doubles it's squadrons from Level 1 to Level 5 while only experiencing a 50% increase from level 5 to level 10.

I'm with you that I don't want to nerf the carriers as it made the game more dynamic and interesting. Before 1.18 people rarely built multiple capital ships. Pandora's box was opened by making carrier capitals competive with one simple change. I would like to see similar differentiation happen with the other capital ships and make the choice of a starting capital ship and subsequent capital ship have pros and cons.

A simple change for Battleships would be to increase the MaxCooldown PerLevel and MaxWeaponDamage PerLevel for battleships. Increasing these to 0.04 and 0.08 results in a level 5 having a dps equivalent to 10 heavies. It's still not as good as the damage is spread across multiple banks but it's an improvement. A level 10 battleship starts to equal the composite damage modifier against Light armor. Again though this is still spread across multiple banks. The forward banks are still only 80% of the base heavy damage.

I'd also like to see some broader differentiation in Planet Bombardment between classes of Capital ships outside of abilities. For example, Carriers and Battleships being damage dealers in the fleet should have significantly less sieging capabilities compared to a Colony or Siege class Battleship. Support capitals could be somewhere in the middle.

A good point about the bombardment levels. Makes it so that you need the siege caps. As for the Cap Carriers I agree. We need the abilities on them slightly change (scramble bombers) but otherwise they are fine. And again I second the second set of weapons banks.

A good point, though we'd have to account for the fact that battleships also get strike craft at higher levels on the other end of the calculation.  Furthermore this isn't much use to a kiting carrier that doesn't get to use its weapons, though it's still a plus that shouldn't be ignored.

While this is completely true, it's also very difficult to model.  In a quick battle involving swarms of strike craft strafing a target, the difference is meaningless.  In a long battle involving several minutes of vicious fighting, this is a game-changer.  In other words, some situations will favour the larger number of less reliable strike craft fielded by cruisers, while other situations will favour the smaller number of more reliable strike craft from capital ships.

This gives strong distinction between the carrier cruisers and the carrier caps.  I'd like to see the solutoin approached in a similar manner to the battleship capital ships; in terms of raw damage output they shouldn't (at least until higher levels) pass over the heavies, but there should be some very notable aspects in which they do perform better.

All capital ships have linear progression.  This is true of all their attributes, including damage, hull, and shields.  The biggest plateau isn't actually their sheer power, but rather that their abilities cap out at level 5.

As far as bombard damage goes, right now siege frigates are kinda gimped so I'm hesitant to start tweaking capital ships roles in this fashion.  Battleships, unlike carriers, are also pretty much taken out of the fight when they bombard, so I don't think it's justifiable to give them the same level of bombard power as carriers.