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Fun at GDC

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Fun at GDC

from JoeUser Forums

I’m writing this from the plane. I tell ya, air travel is a lot more tolerable with WiFi and power outlets.

We got to talk about Elemental: Fallen Enchantress along with plans for Elemental: War of Magic coming up.  Got a lot of good questions. 

And of course, we talked about Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion which is the first really big “expansion” to the Sins of a Solar Empire universe. 

There was also a big announcement regarding Impulse::Reactor Free to Play.  There’s a pretty good chance this will show up in War of Magic as an option.  Right now, the plan is for the DLC to be $0 on it so that we can try out the system in real world conditions. If people are liking it, we’ll see if there’s interest in some additional DLC that we wouldn’t normally give away so we can find out from our fans what things they like about it or don’t like about it.

One of the reasons I’m passionate about Free to Play and DLC (DLC has gotten a bit of a bad rap – deservedly so imo but the concept is still awesome) is I would like to see the base price on PC games go down. Way down.  That doesn’t mean gimping the base game.  Rather, it means setting up a system where people can keep expanding the game without having the overhead (which is a lot) of marketing and distributing it.  I think a lot of people would love to see new little things released for GalCiv II over the past couple years. But we had no means to do it other than releasing an expansion pack which drives the cost way up.  The concept is still developing but I do think PC games need to have a lower sticker price one way or the other (see Minecraft for an example of doing it right).

I also participated in a panel regarding failure. That is, what tends to cause game projects to fail. 

 

image

This was one of my slides.

Since I was talking to developers, the goal was to help Indies avoid the trap we fell into.  When you’re a small indie shop, you can get away with an adhoc development system like we had in Galactic Civilizations.  But War of Magic had 18 people directly involved (not counting shared resource personnel).  That’s why when people say “They should have delayed it” that the response is no, it wouldn’t have made a difference. This sort of thing could have gone on for years. The team thought it was ready for prime time. 

So in my session, the magic number I gave was 7 people as the maximum number before you have to really go after it as a software engineering exercise. Some would argue you should do it with 3 people and I wouldn’t argue with that.  I’m saying that with 7 people, our collaborative, easy going development ways still worked and beyond that they felt apart into chaos.

And so now you know why we brought in Derek Paxton and Jon Shafer.  Great designers. Derek’s job before Stardock was an enterprise level project manager. So now all things go through him. Even my requests have to go through him. 

During the tour I answered some other interesting questions such as why we refused to allow War of Magic to be re-reviewed (a few sites offered). My answer was that that would set a terrible precedence. Sure, War of Magic is pretty decent now and it’ll keep getting better (I’m itching for v1.3 and we haven’t released v1.2 yet).  But the day you make it generally available for money as a “non beta” is the date I think reviews should start and once done, they’re done.   Plus, it would be horribly unfair to all the smaller indies out there who don’t get media coverage. I remember being one of them. 

Ok, about to land, so off I go.  Have fun! Sorry for typos. Smile

80,134 views 33 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm of the opinion that if the game is to be split into single and multiplayer elements with a combined price of $30, the correct distribution is $25 for the single player game and $10 for the multiplayer game. 

Many more people will buy the single player stuff. That's pretty much guaranteed. So milk 'em. The multiplayer stuff won't be bought by nearly as many people, so the best idea is to price it into the impulse buy range in order to maximize the number of potential players. The number of potential opponents is the single most important element when selling MP, because players are dependent on other players to enjoy their game, and an impulse buy priced game is going to have far more MP players than a full priced game if the dev isn't known for MP.

Honestly, the best idea might be to give the MP part away, and then sell expansion packs for it -- like a dealer, give the first hit away for free, and clean up on the next one. If you bill for the SP part you'll pick up a good chunk of change anyway, paying for the development. You'll generate buzz for your unorthodox plan. And you'll attract a huge number of players who'd normally pirate the game to play on the official servers, increasing the odds that they'll actually spend money on the expansions (because they want to keep going on the official servers with their clans and friends) rather than pirating them and playing through third party game matching services and raising the value of the game for people who actually paid for it (by buying the SP segment). If you really really really wanted to generate revenue for an MP game, I'd suggest snagging a concept from the non-profit sector and giving it away for free while asking for an optional payment of whatever you think the value of the MP game is. The rule of thumb for that is people will pay ~70% of what you ask for, with some paying a lot more and many paying a lot less. Generates revenue, generates good will AND generates a deeper feeling of engagement with the development house and the game itself.

Bundles should have a discounted price relative to the combined price of the separate element. That's just good business practice; someone who buys one or the other element probably won't come back for the second part, so convincing them to buy both at once is money in the bank now rather than potential money later. Say someone who bought the SP segment has a 10% chance of coming back to buy the MP segment; that means the present value of a potential MP purchase of $10 per SP purchase is $1. Selling that person a bundle with a discounted MP segment raises the present value from $1 to (at least) $5 and might even grab a few people who decide they want the whole package even if they won't use it. Hence the effectiveness of bundling.

 

With regard to DLC for MP, it should never be dribbled out; always signal the release with significant lead time, and make sure it comes in a single, easily adopted lump. The absolute worst thing you can do to the community is fragment it by selling map and weapon packs and such that aren't compatible with players who don't have the content -- it's going to reduce the number of potential opponents for any individual player, reducing the utility of the MP game. 

If you go the Gillette route of giving away the razor (MP segment) and charging for the blades (MP expansions) you'll have the beneficial result of most people being clustered in the base MP (maximizing utility for the newest entrants to the community) with a subset of the community collected around the current expansion. Those people will be tireless advocates on your behalf on the forums and in the chats, especially if you give them little badges to show that they've bought the expansion. Those people will generate sales, and they will do it for free. This is the exact system used by many non-profits to generate donations; people are invited to free events where donors are rewarded with accolades, and the largest donors are seated on the board and made a part of the fundraising team.

 

Honestly the gaming industry could learn a lot from the non-profit sector about how to extract revenue from individuals who consume the service without paying for it. It can be done, but it takes effort, careful marketing and intelligent use of pricing mechanisms. 

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Aeon221, reply 26
I'm of the opinion that if the game is to be split into single and multiplayer elements with a combined price of $30, the correct distribution is $25 for the single player game and $10 for the multiplayer game. 
End of Aeon221's quote

The pricing is about how many people are expected buy it versus to cost of creating it. The less % of people that are expected to buy the DLC that bought the base game, the worse the deal for the people that buy it and the less of an improvement for those that will not.

With Stardock's stated statistic of only 1% of people using MP in the 4X TBS market, the cost for those that get MP separately extreme and the price reduction for those that are not interested is negligible.


One of the biggest oversights in the this discussion is costs involved. In order for the DLC to pay for MP, the cost per person would need to be increased as it will be distributed amoungst fewer people.

Say MP accounts for $10 of the price of the game when it is included with the main game, with a total cost of $60 for the game. It will be priced to that if the expected number of people buy then everything will be paid for with a certain amount of profit. If that is split of into DLC then the cost is divided between fewer people (say 1% of those that get Elemental are expected to want MP, as that is the number they are throwing around). Therefore it is 1/100 people paying for it rather than 100/100, so the cost will need to be multiplied by 100. Thus MP would cost $1000 extra for those that want it, and the base game would cost $50.

Similarly if it accounted for $1 of the base cost, then the DLC would be $100 and the game would be $59. If it is $0.1 then it is $10 and $59.90 respectively. If it is $0.01 then it is $1 and $59.99 repectively. If the cost of MP is still to be covered. This is why the price of DLC seems rediculous, even if it is fairly priced. It is separated from the game to reduce the price as not everyone is expected to get it so it needs to have a greater cost per buyer.

These numbers are assuming the number of people that would use MP translate into buyers for the DLC and that the number remains constant regardless of price. Really the higher the price the fewer people will get it so it would need to be further increased to reach equalibrium... if there would be any buyers at all in which case it is simply undoable. The other option is to decrease the amount spent on MP so that the amount that people will need to pay for it is less; however, it is already something that no one has any interest in as it is.
End of quote

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

I really want to see a bigger version of that slide.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top
You know how some people play SP and not MP? The reverse is true. And those players can be attracted with a low cost well built MP mode. Stardock already has experience building MP for this engine; with the netcode and infrastructure there, it shouldn't take as much time or expense to add in the game mode. A low cost high quality mp option in the tbs and rts genres could rake in some dough and raise the profile of the game around the web. There might be more SP people, but the MP ones tend to be better represented online and in forums. MP is a loss leader that brings attention. It helps drive sales for the profitable SP element, just like mod tools and support do. Not many people buy games to mod, but the ones that do can generate interest and revenue long after the game is no longer supported.
Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

For DLC done correctly, see Gearbox's Borderlands.

Reply #31 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Aeon221, reply 29
You know how some people play SP and not MP? The reverse is true. And those players can be attracted with a low cost well built MP mode. Stardock already has experience building MP for this engine; with the netcode and infrastructure there, it shouldn't take as much time or expense to add in the game mode. A low cost high quality mp option in the tbs and rts genres could rake in some dough and raise the profile of the game around the web. There might be more SP people, but the MP ones tend to be better represented online and in forums. MP is a loss leader that brings attention. It helps drive sales for the profitable SP element, just like mod tools and support do. Not many people buy games to mod, but the ones that do can generate interest and revenue long after the game is no longer supported.
End of Aeon221's quote

However, per there statements they believe the market for MP for a game like Elemental is essecially non-existant. And they are likely right, if you are only counting the hardcore MP players. Most of it is 'causal' MP players who find is fun to do some times, but do not play enough to make a purchase just to have MP.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

I think they should make an Elemental auction house, encourage but not encourage gildar farming, allow farmer advertising, and charge the advertisers. :andrew:

 

 

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 31


However, per there statements they believe the market for MP for a game like Elemental is essecially non-existant. And they are likely right, if you are only counting the hardcore MP players. Most of it is 'causal' MP players who find is fun to do some times, but do not play enough to make a purchase just to have MP.
End of Gwenio1's quote

 

Which is why giving it away for free is the best idea. Those casuals who are only vaguely interested in the genre and the game would give it a shot because it is free. And they might get grabbed enough to buy MP xpacks or the SP game. 

Fund the giveaway by selling MP expansions or non-community dividing vanity packs (basically reskins of existing gear). The lower the cost, the more players, and the more players the more benefit existing players get and the more likely they are to spend on stuff. Vanity capes for a high rating went over pretty well in DoW2, just make it require regular activity as well as skill to keep people in the game.

Remember, in MP players add to the value derived by other players simply by being online and playing. Each additional player reduces the time it takes to find a new game, and makes charging up the ranks more difficult and exciting. When the MP side costs nothing, there is no value to be gained from playing on non-official servers or piracy, swelling the ranks of potential competitors. That added value those potential pirates provide ends up justifying the expenditure to players of purchasing expansions and vanity packs, and those expenditures fuel development.

This is totally different from the SP experience. For a SP player, it doesn't matter if nobody else ever plays the game -- they derive all their value from the experience of the content and competition with the AI. Once they've beaten the game to satiation, they have nothing to look forward to other than a new release of content. SP enjoyment, therefore, is driven by developer time and (in some cases) modder effort. Since there's no particular reason to engage with the game after satiation, there's no reason to buy DLC after satiation; therefore, the SP part of the game should be payment in advance.

MP players derive their thrill from victory over their human opponents, or a well fought defeat; new content is nice, but they're entirely willing to play for forever so long as the game is good and the competition sticks around. Just look at the original Starcraft, which was played competitively for most of the last decade despite a lack of content releases after the Brood War expansion. There's not a doubt in my mind that if Blizzard had released some vanity packs for Starcraft, they would have sold like hotcakes. 

It takes more time to design and build a new faction, concept and create new art assets and write new story elements than it does to adjust a few variables in the name of balance, or retexture a unit's gear for vanity item sales. MP costs money up front, but other than the fairly negligible cost of running the servers it's practically free after release. And most of the stuff you do for SP can be repurposed for MP with little effort.

There's money to be made here, and it is being left on the table by binding the MP game to the SP game. Take advantage of it! Give away the MP, and then sell DLC that doesn't divide the MP community, and you _will_ make good money on it (and pick up a lot of press for your bold business plan).