Rebellion and Multiplayer

from Sins Forums

I know you are gonna hate me...but, although I didn't play soase a lot of time, I wanna tell you guys what I think it's the main problem of this game.

I think this game is awesome, otherwise I wouldn't have bought all the expensions, but, in my opinion, it lacks of a good multiplayer experience. And unfortunately an RTS game without a good multiplayer experience cannot be considered a good RTS.

I know a lot of you are gonna say they love the current online experience, but I don't, and since usually there are about 10/20 people online I think there are other people, like me, who just don't like it.

Since you are going to release a stand-alone expansion called rebellion I've thought to tell you what I think about the current multiplayer experience in order to try to improve the final game:

First I think games are waaaaaaaaaaaay too long. Most of the people cannot play for 1 or 2 hours in a row, sometimes they don't even know if they are gonna be there in 10 minutes...

Secondly I think games cannot be epic if you win because of the leaving of the other players, this because, let's face it, even when it's obvious you won, you have to waste a lot of time, compared with the other rts, in order to actually win.

 

I hope you (developers) can realize those things without ruining the current game experience, which is actually pretty good!

 

What do you think?

 

10,946 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

It is common practice that people leave once game is decided. There are few exceptions to this rule, namely mega noobs known as: Gandalf/Legolas, kbroke and many incarnations of Nathan.

Low MP count is attributed to many things, like connection problems in the early days of sins or steep learning curve.  Long game lenght is just one of those reasons. That being said every game has it's target group and SoASE differs largely from pop clickfest rubbish like SC2 (flame on). Sins has it's own flavour and turning it into poor man's starcraft would just ruin the experience. Quick games=lack of strategic depth or very high emphasis on micromanagement. You just can't think and/or input commands fast enough to materialize more complex strategic ideas, which is reflected in game design. People ar not AIs.

 

PS I do hate you, but not very much.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

The developers are adding in new victory conditions for Rebellion so that we would not have to play three hours just to crush a ten planet empire online. 

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Secondly I think games cannot be epic if you win because of the leaving of the other players, this because, let's face it, even when it's obvious you won, you have to waste a lot of time, compared with the other rts, in order to actually win.
End of quote

Actually, once it's clear which team is going to win, the players on the losing team call it "gg" and quit.

Most games only last 1:15-1:45.  I don't think much can be done with the amount of time it takes to play other than perhaps designing maps where each player would start out with his asteroid, his home planet, one volcanic, and one ice.  It's not a bad idea, actually.  Based on my years of online multiplayer experience, there are plenty of people who can play games for 3 hours straight.

For the most part, the game itself is fine.  This game suffered from numerous technical problems early-on in its life and it also seems to have appealed primarily to single player 4X gamers and not to online multiplayer PvP RTS gamers.  Hopefully that will change with Rebellion.  Why don't you log onto Diplomacy sometime and try a 4v4 or 5v5 game?  Maybe you'll like it.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

First I think games are waaaaaaaaaaaay too long. Most of the people cannot play for 1 or 2 hours in a row, sometimes they don't even know if they are gonna be there in 10 minutes...
End of quote
Then Sins ain't the game for multiplayer for them.

 

:fox:

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

The only games that last "way too long" are those with overly tight choke points.  Otherwise games that last longer than 90 minutes are uncommon.  That's probably still too long, but not "way" too long.  I think Sins has very strong multiplayer, but it wasn't able to hold on to a large multiplayer community.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Map design is really an essential part of custom-crafting a game for style and speed and way too little attention gets paid to that.  Another option, drop the ability to replace ships and set up maps with little production and fixed fleets (all asteroid belts and gas giants  for examplebesides the homeworld so logstic fleet size stays fixed)--then play to the last ship standing.  You can pace a game then in advance.

I can't criticize Dirty's view at all--it's an individual preference and as valid as any--but I am "invested in Sins" for the following reasons (again, my own personal preferences)...

Lan play makes it great to take along to a game shop with play nights.  My town only has one but another nearby has three--one of which is huge with a few hundred people playing regularly.  I'm hoping when I am able to really finalize a good mod to use a it as a way to create a universe that's tailored to the gamers locally--then we can all play it online (or by lan).

The games are (potentially) very long but the fact that you can save and restart them is absolutely one of the most brilliant features ever put into a game like this.  It's what makes Sins unique in a huge way and I it's what got me--the guy who doesn't have loads of time for super long, uninterupted online play--to buy it in the first place.

It is the only scifi RTS game that I know of that can be modded and played as a long campaign and stopped and picked up at any time after.  The ability to mod it makes it a "classic" and a keeper.  Pre-ordering tonight after playing the current beta as there is no doubt I want to stick with this.

FYI--the solo game is great for the same reasons--a long game that can be played and restarted in segments.  Being able to mod makes tinkering with the game a fun game all in it's own when soloing.

Aside from  a multi-core rewrite and a Space Ponies expansion, the one thing I hope they will address after rebellion is really improving the ability to mod.  Provide string files and refernces, improve the gui over what Galaxy Forge provides, etc., etc.  Create an easy to use mod validation tool (with auto correct--heh).

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting SIN-Imperium, reply 6
Another option, drop the ability to replace ships and set up maps with little production and fixed fleets (all asteroid belts and gas giants  for examplebesides the homeworld so logstic fleet size stays fixed)--then play to the last ship standing.  You can pace a game then in advance.
End of SIN-Imperium's quote

I made a couple maps like that called the Asteroid Belt maps.  They come in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and 5v5 varieties.  People seemed to like them.  If I remember it correctly, everyone gets their home terran, one planet, and their asteroid.  After that the rest is all 'roids.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Sorry for replying so late. (I had to go sleep)

Quoting Mecha-Lenin, reply 1

Sins has it's own flavour and turning it into poor man's starcraft would just ruin the experience. Quick games=lack of strategic depth or very high emphasis on micromanagement. You just can't think and/or input commands fast enough to materialize more complex strategic ideas, which is reflected in game design. People ar not AIs.
End of Mecha-Lenin's quote

Well, I don't like games like starcraft too...my favourite game was "supreme commander FA", which unfortunately has been turned to something too simple (supcom2).

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 3


Actually, once it's clear which team is going to win, the players on the losing team call it "gg" and quit.

End of DirtySanchezz's quote

I don't think that's so good, I don't like when people (I am talking about other rts games) say gg and quit, when it's clear I am going to win I want to crush ALL your empire.

If you show a 5v5 replay (a good one) to a friend of yours (who doesn't know anything about soase), I am sure he won't understand who won...(even when they say gg)...but I am sure he would understand everything if you showed him a starcraft replay...

The point is, if I don't understand the game I just won't buy it, even if that game is much better than something like starcraft.

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 3

Why don't you log onto Diplomacy sometime and try a 4v4 or 5v5 game?  Maybe you'll like it.
End of DirtySanchezz's quote

Unfortunately I was able to do that about a year ago...now it's very hard to find a game... :(

Quoting Darvin3, reply 5
The only games that last "way too long" are those with overly tight choke points.  Otherwise games that last longer than 90 minutes are uncommon.  That's probably still too long, but not "way" too long.  I think Sins has very strong multiplayer, but it wasn't able to hold on to a large multiplayer community.
End of Darvin3's quote

I don't mind if an epic game lasts 2 hours, I mind if you have to play, let's say, 60 minutes and then you find that game was not so good.

Quoting SIN-Imperium, reply 6

The games are (potentially) very long but the fact that you can save and restart them is absolutely one of the most brilliant features ever put into a game like this.  It's what makes Sins unique in a huge way and I it's what got me--the guy who doesn't have loads of time for super long, uninterupted online play--to buy it in the first place.
End of SIN-Imperium's quote

I like that feature as well, but I think that in a 5v5 game it is not so worth it to save the game...(it'll be hard to find those people again and in the same time)

But it's still a nice feature you can use with your friends! :)

 

Thank for your answers and sorry for my english! :)

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Create an easy to use mod validation tool (with auto correct--heh).
End of quote

Well, I think my tool is pretty easy to use. I could also add galaxy file validation easily for manually modified files. I just don't mod maps currently so never got around to it and no one has asked.

Hmm, auto correct   I've wanted to add a feature in Eclipse that provides suggestions when an error is encountered, but I haven't quite figured out that one as its a fairly complex piece. But I do have auto-completion (syntax and constants), hover help, structure definition view, a Syntax wiki :rofl: All this could be extended to galaxy files. Watch the video on my tool page to get a sense of what it looks like.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

I love SOASE.  It is my favorite game.  I love the multiplayer.  I bought it mainly for multi-player.  When I play single, it is an opportunity to practice so I am better at online play.  I have not been playing at all online in the past few months due to work, but I plan on purchasing the expansion soon and will play the game when I can.  Lack of time to play though means I will never be as good as the people who play it all the time.

 

I think part of the problem with the multiplayer experience has to do with the user interface.  I think a good multiplayer user interface can go a long way in helping establish a game's multiplayer experience.  It has to be simple and intuative, and give you all the information that you want/need.  Unfortunatelly, I hate SOASE's multiplayer user interface because it is too simple (I also hate the Civ V's for the same reason).

 

I want to be able to talk to the people in the game room I am in, see who is in the lobby and talk to them, see what games are availalbe on the server, and see how many people are on-line all on 1 screen.  I don't want to have to constantly join/leave/join/leave/join/leave to see who's in the lobby and such.

Here is an exmaple of a multiplayer user interface I would like to see implemented in the new expansion.

 

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Ts11c1yi

 

What do you guys think?