Buffing Capital Ships

I hate that when I play this game we look at some of the Capital ships in this game most are just niche or just unviable in general. I've been going on a thought process to buffing the unviable and making the niche more practical in an actual fight. So I decided to go class by class with ideas on what to do with the Capital Ships and im sure stardock won't take notice of this thread but you never know.

Battleships: These are supposed to be the Flagships of every navy they lead the others into battle. This would be a great idea if they werent so niche like the Radiance(good for stopping a sova embargo as I learned). Or as useless as the Kol(one of the most awesomely designed Caps in game yet its basically a noob trap). I did some analysis of the other capital ships to see what made them useful and for the most part its what makes them akin to their frigate/cruiser counterpart. For example the Progenitor is akin to the Missionary. As the Sova is Akin to the Percheron.

To me it seems like battleships were meant to be like the Light Frigates or Destra(and its equivalents). But the problem is this is just tanky firepower which has almost no place in this game because alone they are vulnerable. The Kortul can handle itself as it was well designed and made for battle. Weapons Jam is great for denying SC powersurge is a great utility spell. I wont even go on because the Kortul* is viable in my opinion.

But lets look at the Kol, its bulky and supposed to do tons of damage. But to do this large amount of damage requires a large amount of Anti-matter. First the Kol needs a Quality of Life buff to its antimatter cost. Then something needs to be done to make the Gauss Rail Gun better than Ion Bolt, Ion Bolt is superior in almost every way. My recommendation maybe have the Gauss Rail Gun recieve the phase jump disabled ability and have that ability removed from the Ion Bolt. Across the Board I think its AM cost could be reduced and it would make it a more viable opener against Carriers.

Then their is the Radiance, its current niche is through micro it can stop a sovas embargo. But it is left with no way of actually defending itself from strike craft like the other battleships. For some reason this ability was given to the Halcyon I dont think that a change of abilities is needed because the Radiance abilities synergize VERY well with each other. I think that the Radiance should recieve small AA guns not enough to where it would replace the need for defense vessels but just enough to keep it protected. This buff could also be applied to the Kol and Kortul if needed. Personally I like the idea of giving small AA guns to this ship it would give a capital ship equivalent to the Defense vessel and make for more viable openers.

 

Support Ships: These ships are supposed to buff your allied ships but disrupt enemy forces but in my opinion I just don't really see it happening to often multiplayer from my experience has generally been a carrier or mothership opener. Although I have heard the Dunov is viable so I don't believe I will need to go over this one. And as for the Antorak I think its a great Cap and is underappreciated its general incentive is it makes for great assaults and would make a great second Cap as its ability to ignore phase jump inhibitors is great*.

So lets take a look at the Rapture for starters. Man this ship is a mess its firepower pales in comparison to the Dunov. Most of its abilities have no synergy and are just a mess. If you actually look at the description of this ability it is "Crewed by the Advent's most gifted Psintegrat, it has many psionic combat abilities. ". But most combat spells on this ship are either meh or just bad. The Concentration Aura is GREAT and Vertigo is ok but its still not good enough to actually build the Rapture. My problem comes with the Vengeance ability to early its very bad and most likely you wont really make it into the late game for it to matter. I personally think this ability should be removed and Domination should be moved to replace it. Domination is the ultimate for the ship but its not even THAT great a single target ability that takes over a ship. In a 1v1 this would be a good ability but in 5's and 3's this ability pales because of the size of the enemy fleets. Making domination an early game ability will give a reason to build this Capital ship. Now of course it would need cooldown nerfs to balance it out.

And give it a new ultimate something that will make this a TRUE support ship. I think something that would work like reanimate dead from warcraft 3 would be awesome. Imagine it ghost advent ships wrecking your fleet for a short period! It wouldent be to far fetched either I mean hell look at the description for the Progenitors ultimate. These changes would keep the rapture true to the role of Psionic Combat Abilities and hopefully allow it to be built more often.

Heavy Assault Ships: Are kind of supposed to be related to the Siege ships. Its not that these are bad ships at all there is just no real incentive to build them. The Marza. It hits really hard. It does its job very well for what it was build to do I personally don't think this needs to be buffed.

Then their is the Revelation its supposed to work as a massive Purge Vessel and at level 6 it does this. I understand it was never meant to be a pure assault vessel but its ultimate is the only thing aside from Clairvoyance that is relevant to siegeing a planet. "A support ship that trades off firepower for the ability to manipulate enemy populations." Im not going to say its a horrible ship just that its awkward Reverie is a good ability. But Guidance makes no sense at all the the description of the Revelation its also not even a truely good ability. I think Guidance should be removed for another ability that is more oriented towards doing something to the enemies logistics**.  Something like a debuff to the amount of credits/crystal/metal gained from the gravity well. Or something that would disable planetary upgrades or frigate production.

The Vulkoras pesonally I think the Jarassul and the Vulkoras should trade ultimates. But the Jarassul makes sense with the Drain Planet ability lore wise. So perhaps the damage output of Drain Planet should be nerfed if the original idea doesent want to be put to play.

Fin: And this is pretty much the end of my rant on Capital ships these are just ideas and not something I think MUST be done to the game. But I hope the devs take the time to look at the old capital ships before they release the new ones with rebellion. I have some side notes at the bottom explaining the reason why I said some things in this post I hope you enjoyed your read:D

 

*I really do not have much experience with races other than the Advent so forgive me for any arrogance I may have towards the viability of any of these ships.

**I wanted to go into explaining this because it may confuse others. What I mean is that the Rapture was meant to directly effect the flow of battle that was the whole purpose of my rework of the Rapture. The Revelation was supposed to effect the enemy population which is why it needs to effect the logistical aspect of the enemy. Its ultimate reduces a planet to nothing lowering the credits amount. Clairvoyance allows you to see the enemy territory not directly effecting combat. Im ok with the Reverie ability as it is just one ability.

13,653 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top

 

Battle ships are just that, they are not titans and therefore should almost always have an attendant fleet. The Kol should be heavily used when fighting the vasari. It's one cap ship they can't pulverize easily once they have full missile research. The rail gun on the Kol is nice for the reduced speed, but it's meant for damage not disable like ion bolt.

The radiance is meant to literally tank for your fleet, which it can do quite well if you keep things like the dominator and guardians nearby. Soaking up damage so my weaker ships don't get chewed up as fast doesn't seem niche to me, but w/e. As for defending from SC... once again that's what an attendant fleet is for, defense vessels, drone hosts. Capships are glorified fleet support, not stand alone warships.

The rapture battlecruiser, in my own experience, can be absolutely devestating. If you have enough healing ships in your fleet or tanks (preferrably both) using vengeance will cause the enemy to suicide. Imo Vengeance is the best ability the rapture has, especially if you have more than one rapture in a fleet. Something to keep in mind about domination, you can go over your fleet limit with it. (Does that still hold true? Trying to think about it now and I suddenly find myself not so sure.) But while it may not seem that great, I consider an ability that instantly "destroys" an enemy ship and then boosts your own fleet to be quite potent. Once again especially if you swarm with raptures. As for it's damage, pair it with a halcyon. You'll get far more out of the halcyon's SC and instant damage buff for your rapture.

Uhh... yeah a ghost fleet would be far fetched. The Resurrection ability makes sense in that the advent are all mentally linked, so when a capship dies they just take the minds of the dead still in the link and put them in new hosts. Something that would make more sense would be an ability for psionic surge.

While the revelation might supposed to have the place of planetary attacker, it's really just another support ship with an extra ability for planet damage. Guidance is probably the best ability this ship has. Instantly lowering the cooldowns of your fleet's abilities is very useful. Reverie is good for stopping a heavy hitter or an annoying support ship while you focus fire on something else. Clairvoyance is useful for instant scouting.

Part of the problem is it sounds like you're trying to make capships out to be leveled up versions of frigates which in a way they are and they all have specific roles, but their roles aren't meant to match up to any particular frigate, which is what it sounded like you were trying to do.

All this is just my own personal experience. I also do not MP very often so if any MPers want to concur with or debunk anything I've said in regards to that, it'd be much appreciated.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 1
Guidance is probably the best ability this ship has. Instantly lowering the cooldowns of your fleet's abilities is very useful.
End of Dragoon4ever's quote

Hahaha, tell me, when was the last time you had issues with the cool down times as Advent? They have a ton of passives and overtime/channeling abilities. Their bottleneck is antimatter. Hitting the cooldown will make you wait a couple seconds. Running out of antimatter will stop you for the better part of a minute, and prevents you from using multiple abilities. Really this ability would be far more useful on the TEC, its just a joke for the Advent.

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 1
The radiance is meant to literally tank for your fleet, which it can do quite well if you keep things like the dominator and guardians nearby. Soaking up damage so my weaker ships don't get chewed up as fast doesn't seem niche to me, but w/e. As for defending from SC... once again that's what an attendant fleet is for, defense vessels, drone hosts. Capships are glorified fleet support, not stand alone warships.
End of Dragoon4ever's quote

No capitalship can take focus fire for very long even at midgame fleets. Even if this was its job, Animosity has never worked very well, actually it might still be totally broken (as in you can give your ships a new order to remove this effect entirely). Really the only role the Radiance has is a capitalship killer thanks to detonate antimatter, but there is only a limited window of the game where its useful to have one of these.

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 1
Imo Vengeance is the best ability the rapture has, especially if you have more than one rapture in a fleet.
End of Dragoon4ever's quote

I'd say its battle meditation, a damage bonus to potentially unlimited amounts of Strikecraft that can be used at the edge of the gravity well is absolutely devastating late game.

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 1
(Does that still hold true? Trying to think about it now and I suddenly find myself not so sure.)
End of Dragoon4ever's quote

It does, but in competitive games you're usually taking loses so regularly this doesn't really happen.

 

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 1
 

Battle ships are just that, they are not titans and therefore should almost always have an attendant fleet. The Kol should be heavily used when fighting the vasari. It's one cap ship they can't pulverize easily once they have full missile research. The rail gun on the Kol is nice for the reduced speed, but it's meant for damage not disable like ion bolt.

The radiance is meant to literally tank for your fleet, which it can do quite well if you keep things like the dominator and guardians nearby. Soaking up damage so my weaker ships don't get chewed up as fast doesn't seem niche to me, but w/e. As for defending from SC... once again that's what an attendant fleet is for, defense vessels, drone hosts. Capships are glorified fleet support, not stand alone warships.

The rapture battlecruiser, in my own experience, can be absolutely devestating. If you have enough healing ships in your fleet or tanks (preferrably both) using vengeance will cause the enemy to suicide. Imo Vengeance is the best ability the rapture has, especially if you have more than one rapture in a fleet. Something to keep in mind about domination, you can go over your fleet limit with it. (Does that still hold true? Trying to think about it now and I suddenly find myself not so sure.) But while it may not seem that great, I consider an ability that instantly "destroys" an enemy ship and then boosts your own fleet to be quite potent. Once again especially if you swarm with raptures. As for it's damage, pair it with a halcyon. You'll get far more out of the halcyon's SC and instant damage buff for your rapture.

Uhh... yeah a ghost fleet would be far fetched. The Resurrection ability makes sense in that the advent are all mentally linked, so when a capship dies they just take the minds of the dead still in the link and put them in new hosts. Something that would make more sense would be an ability for psionic surge.

While the revelation might supposed to have the place of planetary attacker, it's really just another support ship with an extra ability for planet damage. Guidance is probably the best ability this ship has. Instantly lowering the cooldowns of your fleet's abilities is very useful. Reverie is good for stopping a heavy hitter or an annoying support ship while you focus fire on something else. Clairvoyance is useful for instant scouting.

Part of the problem is it sounds like you're trying to make capships out to be leveled up versions of frigates which in a way they are and they all have specific roles, but their roles aren't meant to match up to any particular frigate, which is what it sounded like you were trying to do.

All this is just my own personal experience. I also do not MP very often so if any MPers want to concur with or debunk anything I've said in regards to that, it'd be much appreciated.
End of Dragoon4ever's quote

 

You said it yourself you do not play multiplayer that much. If you actually did you would know the Rapture, Revelation, and Radiance are almost NEVER built. Just like the Kol is NEVER built as a matter of fact, the Kol I believe is considered the worst Capital ship.

Im just going to put it this way if you really do not play multiplayer that much its best not to comment on viability. No one actually gets the Revelation because clairvoyance is a good ability or because reverie is a good ability YES they are good abilities but their is almost no reason to choose these ships because the Progenitor and Halcyon outclass them three-fold.

Also for the record capital ships basically ARE leveled up frigates/cruiser. I don't blame you I havent played multiplayer long, but its pretty obvious upon playing it that these listed capital ships are practically NEVER used. Theres a fine line between a capital ship having good abilities and practical abilities. Colonize is a practical ability. The Anima Squadron ability is practical. Both improve either the economic side or the offensive side and are not really inbetween.

Reply #4 Top

I stand corrected and I see your point. And for some reason I want to start MPing again lol.

Reply #5 Top

<3

Reply #6 Top

I actually thought some of these were good ideas such a shame no one else really acknowledges this thread:p

Reply #7 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 6
I actually thought some of these were good ideas such a shame no one else really acknowledges this thread:p
End of MayallCommunion's quote

They were and for the most part agreed what you guys said, besides, this post was viewed 110 times if that means anything to you. So it wasn't liked it was ignored or anything....

Reply #8 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 6
I actually thought some of these were good ideas such a shame no one else really acknowledges this thread:p
End of MayallCommunion's quote

Most of it has been somewhat addressed in "Project Equilibrium" by Seleucia, though I don't think there is a current version for the capitalship changes. They and many other things were really discussed by lots of the community when it looked like Stardock released the last Diplomacy patch, but then Rebellion came along and no one wants to work hard fixing something that will probably get major changes anyways.

I suspect when Sins is really done for another attempt will be made to get a community version of the game that is truly balanced.

Reply #9 Top

Another issue with this is as much as some want to make the caps worth their salt, the MP community has grown content with the way things are. Really, MP players, in my experience, tend not to worry about what a few ships could be but rather work with what the ships are, exploring the strategies that surround the state of the game. They may ask for nerfs if something proves too easy to spam, but if one or two ships are worthless, they just brush them aside with little noise made. That being said, the MPers know which way to go for their purposes.

SPers are more open to mods of all varieties. This means that they will pick on the weaknesses of a few ships, but don't lean on the devs to fix it, especially with a highly moddable game such as this. Instead they create or find mods that give them the desired result. From the start there was a mod that made caps stronger and since then many mods have sought to incorporate such mechanisms, some even creating whole new caps or flagship classes (this is not taking into account complete conversion mods). The end result is less worry about getting the devs to comply.

I can see some of the points. I admit that Advent are my weakness, thus I can't really agree or disagree on a lot of it. Maybe the devs will consider this, but I have to admit that with Rebellion approaching I wonder how it will balance out. I like to think that caps would go somewhere about a third of the way between cruisers and titans, but I'm also not a fan of the Death Star mentality that often produces a massive jump between the 'big' ship and the 'holy mother of god' ship.

Reply #10 Top

I just have a belief that all ships should be viable in the game. Mainly because if they are in the game, they shouldent be useless or never built. Thats just not good balance. Although I can see where you are coming from. I guess I just have to wait for rebellion!

Reply #11 Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 10
I just have a belief that all ships should be viable in the game.
End of MayallCommunion's quote

I believe this too. It's not just Sins that has this problem, as I've noticed in Homeworld 2 that the destroys, despite lying between the ranks fo frigates and battlecruisers, have no real protection against a number of frigates and no real effect against a battlecruiser even in numbers itself. So I usually skip making any. Homeworld 2 Complex makes up for this by giving a unique variety of destroyers to fit specific roles that the battlecruiser doesn't. Some mods here try to do make caps more worth it, but as it stands, the DPS per credit cost of a cruiser versus cap would have to be heavily altered to really work it all out. Even with the cap abilities, unless they have an area of effect, like the Akkan or a flagship from DS, the abilities don't outmatch anything the cruisers bring to the party.

Of course, then you also have to compete with the balance issue of making a purely 'go big or go home' game. I think the best way to pull it all off is to find the right balance of AM and ability variety, but without ultimately making each race a carbon copy of the next.