I don't know so why don't you tell me that too??? Do you hate all the other religions … because I don’t? It’s not for me is all … so what. I try not to become ensnarled in religious conundrums because there is only one valid point of view … theirs. But when they try and get their dogmatic hatreds made legal I take offense. And when people take a barbaric dogmatism thousands of years old filled with anything but enlightenment and vie with the sciences of the 21st century … well I have to become involved. All this nonsense stems from those deific absolute morals you like to bring up. You know the inviolate word of god and all that brouhaha. What is it that you want to discuss here because I don’t know???

If I had no belief in God and moral absolutes, I'd have no opinion or concern for those of others.  It would be like asking me if I was bothered by kids believing in the tooth fairy--of course I'm not.

But I also am not in some tooth fairy skepticism worked into a froth trying to de-evangelize the world of tooth fairy ism and to discredit the people who believed in it.

I honestly wouldn't care.

My point in this conversation is just for those of you who "don't know" and have decided "you can't" not to persuade people who haven't made their mind up to "never consider that view".

People who really believe, believe for a reason.  You can prop up a straw man and say they're all incapable of critical thinking and self-realization but that's a broad brush and a lie.

If I didn't believe and my child asked, "Why do people believe that stuff?" my response woul;d be, "Go ask one of them and find out.".

 

And you would be grossly negligent unless you didn't even know why you were a disbeliever. Your children need your guidance, your expertise and your experience but to turn a blind eye like this tells me you are just being argumentative or that you are clueless here too. So no god means no responsibility even to one’s own children … what utter nonsense.

WTF ... I think this pretty well applies to well everything don't you???

Why do you like these corny analogies? Is there some reason why you cannot give me a couple of those human moral absolute (besides death), just still wondering?

In my example I wasn't trying for literal exactness.  Assume with my own kids I'd tell them what I thought long before hand.  What I wouldn't tell them is that "I knew" things I didn't know.

As for absolutes...

Don't take another's life. Don't steal from someone. Don't lie to defraud someone of their value or property or self worth.

You can add as many as you like as a lot of things fall in this sort of category.

The bottom line is though these things are just idealisms if there isn't some absolute value in them.

If I truly lived an existence where truth was relative and only internally conceived and perceived, I'd do whatever I pleased and sleep soundly at night.  Why not steal?  Why not murder?  Why not lie? If you have something and I want it and can get it for free without being caught, why not take it?

If I am caught in the act and will lose my job and family and go to jail for it, why not kill the witness if I know I can get away with it?

We are biologically wired to conform to some extent to the traits that keep us from doing this but people override that all the time.  We aren't puppets or robots who must obey the program...jails are full of people who don't.

So why accept these things when they interfere with achieving our goals or satisfying our desires?

In the case of unrestrained and unrepentant murder and thievery, you will find few people aside from genuine sociopaths who will routinely do those things and be able to conscience free say they are untroubled by them.

We have these laws apparently strongly imprinted on us--yet not so strongly that we can't break them simply as an act of will.  Why then do we value them as truth?

If the programming isn't making us do it, then what is?

At the age of six, I was minutes away from stabbing someone to death--coldly and without emotion--simply as a practical matter no different than going to the bathroom.  I can clearly recall it and know exactly the state of mind I was in at the time. I had no fear, no conscience about it and then something visceral literally stopped me in my tracks--against my will.  It angered me but I could not resist it despite my intent to do so.

If you have enough experiences in life like this you come to realize that we are more than the sum of our parts and there is more than just "what we think and decide" or "biology".

If you haven't had these experiences, then you can make up any sort of "truisms" you like and call them all "valid".  If you don't value anything as absolute truth within yourself then you have no absolute value within yourself for others.

You just do not seem to be able to comprehend the other side of the coin at all do you?. If you need some crusty old book to answer these kinds of questions then you are a prevaricator or you are good at fooling yourself. Indecently, “without being caught” is a highly overrated concept.

How about because we are presumably not idiots or because we do not approve of reciprocal treatment or because we just do not like hurting people ... for example.

How many religious people have to go to jail before you understand you guys are not exempt from this foolhardyness?

You were a sick puppy and needed some mental help. This is a perfect example of sociopathic behavior ... but somewhat young for this kind of serious acting out. No, I don't have these kinds of memories and I do not believe they are normal in any respect. I stopped having to ‘experience’ everything when I learned to read for comprehension many moons ago.

 

I do understand your side of the coin as I have been there.  I also understand the other side(s) of the coin you haven't seen.

It's not that I don't get it--it's that you aren't able to understand what those other experiences are.

Slapping on generic labels and pulling out "authoritative videos" doesn't equal understanding.

I cited my childhood experience not as an example of normal--but to point out that having additional experiences that can be used comparatively might get you some understanding into those things that presently "can't be true" to you.

I'm not one of "you guys" nor have I ever said or implied that religion makes one "better" or people within a faith should get a pass for doing wrong things.  We are all humans--for good and ill--which is something I have repeatedly tried to focus on.

The "us-them" mentality is an obstacle to really looking for truth.  It's a sign of an already made up mind--i.e., one that is closed.

I've been reading for comprehension since I was six years old--starting with world history, dictionaries, encyclopedias and college textbooks.  I comprehend fairly well.  I also am able to experience and think for myself and don't have to read a book or watch a video to know what's real or not.

I'm not threatened by being confronted with ideas outside of those I have already accepted--I find it challenging.  I also don't feel any compulsion to be angry with people who disagree with me.

David, you have no idea what I have seen and experienced beyond the little discussed, and you would do well to remember that. If you call your childhood experience normal, then you still need help. I don't GAS how one feel about god; there is nothing normal about what you described so far. In all of my 60 years and 4 days, the only people I wanted to 'murder' were people who grievously affronted me or my family (3 people, all cops) but I awakened and limited it to hate till time did it'd job for me. I don't know much about you either but you have had what I consider oddly unique experiences and because of that, I do not wish to experience anything you think you did. Regardless, there is nothing whatsoever that obliges me to believe anything just because someone else believes it, nothing at all … let alone just on faith. If you want to entertain the possibility of magical nonsense like unicorns, fairy tales, witches or even mind readers … well I don’t, I think it a waste of time. If entertaining the unfounded beliefs of others makes it easier for you to hold on to your own, well lots of luck there. The Age of Aquarius is upon us so your Christian time is running out, hahaha. People can only remember their gods for so long and then they just go away. I hope we are smart enough not to invent anymore because we have better things to do. If you cannot talk to me without all the ”us’s and them’s” nonsense, why bother? Your honesty is appreciated but your beliefs are your own and your feelings are all under your control. You had no idea at all what comprehension was at 6 years old or you wouldn’t have contemplated cold blooded murder. If you just want to continue to blow smoke, go back and talk with the atheists who misinformed you so well in the past, or was that the church too? We all have a story David and none are privy to anyone else’s. Try talking to me not at or about me.

 

 

I am certain that a lot of experiences I've had you haven't as you don't believe in many of them and deny the possibility of many being possible as well.  So I'm not trying to paint you with a broad brush there--just making an observational point

Just to repeat, no--I didn't call the experience a normal one.  Quite the opposite.  There are some studies and cases of children who had the same experiences which usually comes as a result of violent trauma at a very early age (near infancy and after)--which would be my case.  I also was quite intelligent at that age--reading novels and by seven even some college course books.

Just for detail--I wasn't motivated by hate at that time.  It was strictly a (to myself) practical decision to remove something I saw as a problem for me.  No emotional fueling  involved at all.

The reason to speak here (or anywhere) as a believer is to rebut attempts to categorize most/all Christians as "the same" and use that as a device to dismiss any and every Christian experience from biblical times to the present.

As I have said before, my best friends for years were atheists and agnostics and we had no problem talking at length as the only references we could get for one another was by sharing our thoughts and experiences face to face and making personal assessments of what we heard.

Now anyone can just watch a video, buy a book or go to the internet for their thinking with no thought required, become an expert and then select a convenient meme to validate their new brilliance and to continue repeating to snare others.

So my interjections are just to say, "the stereotype isn't truth".

As to the pragmatism of eliminating all religious belief and practice.  Take an honest look around and see what would go with it.  Remove every Christian soup kitchen and charity and mission organization and counseling line and see what crater is left where they used to be.

I guarantee you it would redefine any metropolitan business district and throw hundreds of thousands into poverty and starvation simply by the absence alone.

So it's a n ice theory to "imagine" with John Lennon but the reality has ramifications beyond, "all you guys are atavistic throwbacks to a superstitious day and need to evaporate away in the light of modern science and thought.".

A final thought to think on is EVERY society that has dethroned and removed social acceptance of religion always has created a new religion to take it's place--a religion of state or personality or political decree.  Tyrants that have risen from or created such systems delight in the absence of any sort of strong spiritual belief because it leaves the field open to redefine everything from morality to what it means to be human and free.

Most of what you present is a view that "if we weren't around" things would be better and that's never proven to be the case.  They would more to the point simply be "different".