Disruption matrix: the real reason it's too strong

from Sins Forums

The issue isn't the damage(which the most recent patch reduced).  The issue is that with it's enormous AoE and scaling abilty diable duration, it fairly quickly is going to prevent the entire enemy fleet from using abilities for 8-14 seconds.   Which means other factions can't use the tools they ordinarily use to defend against AoE damage against Disruption Matrix's damage(Advent in particularly is hard hit as all their counters to AoE damage are channels that will be interrupted even if they were cast before disruption matrix is activated).

 

The real proverbial kick in the nads though is the synergy with other AoE damage.  Disruption matrix's damage alone is managable, but throw in an EMP charge from the Dunov or even simply add ina sufficiently mature TEC fleet's weapon damage and that's a ton of damage that the enemy is completely helpless to defend against.  The worst case is when combined with a Marza level 6 ability.  The enemy can't defend against marza with aoe mitigation abilities and worse yet they can't even interrupt the Marza(unless they happen to be Vasari and have a lucky Kortul handy).  With easily 11-14 seconds of the marza ult untterruptible, combined with disrution matrix's damage, that's easily 2500-3000 damage to the entire enemy fleet which the opponent can't really respond to and mitigate with aoe-counters in any way.

 

Also it just creates a bad game situation for a strategy game: If the opponent uses Disruption matrix intelligently(when the opponent doesn't already have any defensive busts such as repair cloud or another TLT's group shield active), there's really no counter-play to this tactic.  The ability quite literally disables pretty much all of the enemy's counter-play tools.  Things without counters in a RTS are bad for the game even when they are technically balanced.

 

Honestly I think one of four things have to be done:

 

1).  Have Disruption Matrix only disable the abilities of frigates BUT  Have it increase the antimatter cost of abilities used by capital-ships by 100%(perhaps a 50% cooldown increase as well).   It will almost have the same effect on capital ships(they will use abilities sparingly during the duration), but they at least have the option to cast that one key defense/interrupt they judge to be so necessary it's worth the drastically increased cost.

 

2).  Have Disruption Matrix also disable the ability use of allied ships as well as enemy ships.  The real problem is the synergy of disruption matrix with other aoE damage abilities.  Turn Disruption Matrix into an ability dead-zone for both sides solves this.  It would still be in the TEC's favor due tot he AoE damage, TEC's naturally long cooldowns on many cap ship abilities(Disruption matrix could be used once the TEC player has all their key cap-ship abilities on cooldown already), and the fact that TEC doesn't have many channels they have to worry about interrupting(whereas against advent opponents they are likely to at the very least interrupt any instances of guardian shield projection.

 

3). Have the ability disable be a static 5 seconds and only the damage over time duration scales to ranks.  5 Seconds is managable- there's only so much the TEC can do in that period(with marza 3/4 of the ult would still be interruptable).  It's really just the higher ranks that pose a problem.

 

4).  Give all factions counters.  This option requires no enrf but is a great deal more work.  All factions would need some form of defense against AoE not negated by ability-use prevention.

 

 

Either way, With any of these changes I could see the damage enrf revoked.  The damage was never really the problem IMO.  Anyway, post your own thoughts on this ability.

 

3,814 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I honestly think that at this point, only a swarm of Anima Drone Hosts (like 50) will be enough to counter the TLT as an Advent player, but it is too costly and the Drone Hosts can easily be gunned down.

Disruption Matrix is a wonderful idea on paper, but it cripples your opponent too much, especially if it is an Advent player.
I do like your idea of Disruption Matrix affecting your own ships as well - a massive burst of energy like that should have some negative effects on your own fleet.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

I dunno, it seems to me advent is perfectly capable of dealing with TEC loyalists, Titan abilities included, although I have to concede that in the recent instance my titan was higher level (just one or two levels). Infact, it seems advent really rape TEC, from what I can tell: they are a Homeworld swarmer's dream come true.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting 137, reply 2
I dunno, it seems to me advent is perfectly capable of dealing with TEC loyalists, Titan abilities included, although I have to concede that in the recent instance my titan was higher level (just one or two levels). Infact, it seems advent really rape TEC, from what I can tell: they are a Homeworld swarmer's dream come true.
End of 137's quote

Personally, I have only played against the AI, not human players, since I still am not good enough, so I am mostly speculation. We both know that human players will be able to use their abilities much more effectively than the AI ever could, hence why I am a bit pessimistic on this subject.

The Advent are highly dependent on their synergies and the majority of these synergies come from capital ship abilities. As soon that is taken away, our fleets are not living up to their full potential. It also does not help that Disruption Matrix deals a lot of damage over time. True, the TEC (Loyalists) finally have a superb synergy, but at the cost of being quite unbalanced.

Please do remember that I have yet to play multiplayer in this beta as the Advent. Because of this, if someone who played as Advent against the TEC Loyalists should post here, his/her post should carry more weight than my post(s).

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I was Advent Rebel fighting against an Unfair AI's TLT in this situation :-

 

*I owned the gravity well, had culture, full research (all trees)

*Had a full compliment of tactical modules built up (a bunch of synergied beam arrays, a bunch of hanger defenses, a phase inhibitor and like 3 repair platforms all bunched together near a starbase for sharing the Synergy shield buff all around)

*Maxed starbase "out in front" (closest thing to the enemy ships) with 3 x Preservation and 2 x weapons, the rest of the upgrades I bought were non-combat (trade and culture I think)

*I had a total of like 12 fighter squadrons from the hangar defenses, and allocated them all to fighters because I anticipated an enemy attack with a swarm of their own bombers and didn't want them to take down my Starbase

*About a minute after the enemy fleet hits the gravity well, my own fleet arrives: 2 level 8 Progenitor capships and an level 5 advent rebel titan. I already have my Radiance flagship in the gravity well, but it's hanging back just behind the starbase and the beam arrays so that only the LRMs can attempt to hit it (and it seems they're more interested in hitting the beam arrays anyway).

*I take a look at the enemy fleet and they have a level 4 TLT, 2 Ogrovs, several LRMs,  Level 5 and 6 Kols, a level 8 Akkan, 2 level 4 Sovas, a level 6 Dunov, and a total of about 12 assorted frigates/cruisers (percherons, kodiaks and hoshikos).

*The AI rushes my starbase head-on with the softer ships, and the maxed weapons obliterate all but the cap ships and titan in a very short time. This is about when my titan and backup fleet (the 2 Progenitors) arrives. Their titan is still at like 95% shields because it's sitting out of range of the starbase, hammering away at a hangar defense I have sitting out vulnerable on the side of my primary defensive line.

*I go after the TLT with my titan (which is 1 level higher than theirs) and my 2 Progenitors. Later I cautiously throw in the flagship for extra DPS.

*A lot of fighting happens. The end result: I lost a bunch of my weaker modules (beam arrays and mineral extractors, mainly) and my capships had about 50% hull each, but their shields were doing well because I was able to retreat them mid-battle and use the shield restoration ability. The enemy titan fought to the bitter end but was destroyed. It seemed very interested in attacking my flagship and my modules, so my own titan was hardly damaged. I ended up destroying all of the capships, too, because they couldn't retreat; my phase inhibitor was cleverly placed, surrounded by a ring of beam arrays, repair platforms, and the starbase on one side -- so the enemy would've had to target it with their entire fleet from the very beginning in order to destroy it, but since it's the AI, it didn't do that.

*Considering the odds, and considering how heavily I inflicted losses on the enemy while only losing a few modules and taking a lot of hull off of my capships, I think I did pretty well... I was feeling the annoyance of the TLT ability for sure, but I used the gravity well advantage plus things like repair platforms and the starbase's superior firepower to eventually wear down and destroy the titan. Basically it tried very hard to punch through my defenses, but I had so much pushback built up that it wasn't able to break through. And it couldn't repel the damage being dealt by my starbase indefinitely, because even against a titan that thing can DEAL. I used my flagship to lure the titan into range of all three of my starbases's weapons, and it didn't last very long after that (especially while being targeted full blast by my own titan).

I also used the mobility of my reinforcing fleet to my advantage: I killed their Ogrovs right at the very beginning of the battle, because I knew my titan and capships could withstand a little heat in order to destroy the Ogrovs before retreating back within range of my modules, which then provided a lot of much-needed soaking up damage from the capships and titan.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Allquixotic, reply 4
I was Advent Rebel fighting against an Unfair AI's TLT in this situation :-

 

*I owned the gravity well, had culture, full research (all trees)

*Had a full compliment of tactical modules built up (a bunch of synergied beam arrays, a bunch of hanger defenses, a phase inhibitor and like 3 repair platforms all bunched together near a starbase for sharing the Synergy shield buff all around)

*Maxed starbase "out in front" (closest thing to the enemy ships) with 3 x Preservation and 2 x weapons, the rest of the upgrades I bought were non-combat (trade and culture I think)

*I had a total of like 12 fighter squadrons from the hangar defenses, and allocated them all to fighters because I anticipated an enemy attack with a swarm of their own bombers and didn't want them to take down my Starbase

*About a minute after the enemy fleet hits the gravity well, my own fleet arrives: 2 level 8 Progenitor capships and an level 5 advent rebel titan. I already have my Radiance flagship in the gravity well, but it's hanging back just behind the starbase and the beam arrays so that only the LRMs can attempt to hit it (and it seems they're more interested in hitting the beam arrays anyway).

*I take a look at the enemy fleet and they have a level 4 TLT, 2 Ogrovs, several LRMs,  Level 5 and 6 Kols, a level 8 Akkan, 2 level 4 Sovas, a level 6 Dunov, and a total of about 12 assorted frigates/cruisers (percherons, kodiaks and hoshikos).

*The AI rushes my starbase head-on with the softer ships, and the maxed weapons obliterate all but the cap ships and titan in a very short time. This is about when my titan and backup fleet (the 2 Progenitors) arrives. Their titan is still at like 95% shields because it's sitting out of range of the starbase, hammering away at a hangar defense I have sitting out vulnerable on the side of my primary defensive line.

*I go after the TLT with my titan (which is 1 level higher than theirs) and my 2 Progenitors. Later I cautiously throw in the flagship for extra DPS.

*A lot of fighting happens. The end result: I lost a bunch of my weaker modules (beam arrays and mineral extractors, mainly) and my capships had about 50% hull each, but their shields were doing well because I was able to retreat them mid-battle and use the shield restoration ability. The enemy titan fought to the bitter end but was destroyed. It seemed very interested in attacking my flagship and my modules, so my own titan was hardly damaged. I ended up destroying all of the capships, too, because they couldn't retreat; my phase inhibitor was cleverly placed, surrounded by a ring of beam arrays, repair platforms, and the starbase on one side -- so the enemy would've had to target it with their entire fleet from the very beginning in order to destroy it, but since it's the AI, it didn't do that.

*Considering the odds, and considering how heavily I inflicted losses on the enemy while only losing a few modules and taking a lot of hull off of my capships, I think I did pretty well... I was feeling the annoyance of the TLT ability for sure, but I used the gravity well advantage plus things like repair platforms and the starbase's superior firepower to eventually wear down and destroy the titan. Basically it tried very hard to punch through my defenses, but I had so much pushback built up that it wasn't able to break through. And it couldn't repel the damage being dealt by my starbase indefinitely, because even against a titan that thing can DEAL. I used my flagship to lure the titan into range of all three of my starbases's weapons, and it didn't last very long after that (especially while being targeted full blast by my own titan).

I also used the mobility of my reinforcing fleet to my advantage: I killed their Ogrovs right at the very beginning of the battle, because I knew my titan and capships could withstand a little heat in order to destroy the Ogrovs before retreating back within range of my modules, which then provided a lot of much-needed soaking up damage from the capships and titan.
End of Allquixotic's quote

 

Sorry, but the opponent being stupid enough(read:AI) to charge headfirst into a fully upgraded starbase+modules and lose with the TLT doesn't really constitute a balanced counter.

 

Staying on the defensive against the TEC loyalists likely won't be an options(then the novaliths come out)  Advent needs to be able to deal with disruptive Matrix on neutral ground(well perhaps advent culture, but no fortifications) with comparable forces. Whether " it's balanced" if a bit different then "whether it's possible to win with enough advantages".  As it stands  TLT bends advent over a table by disabling their fleet synergy leaving them open to a mag-dump of AoE to which the advent fleet can't do much besides take it.

 

Also it's worth noting the problem with disruptive matrix isn't the AoE dump killing your cap-ships, It's mostly the frigates that will die, but even those that live won't change the result of the battle as at that point advent will be so far behind in damage that the battle is as good as lost(sort of hard to compete with a 3000-damage to the advent's entire fleet opener that can't be mitigated or defended against with any of the Advent's defensive tools).

 

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting bilun, reply 5

Sorry, but the opponent being stupid enough(read:AI) to charge headfirst into a fully upgraded starbase+modules and lose with the TLT doesn't really constitute a balanced counter.

 

Staying on the defensive against the TEC loyalists likely won't be an options(then the novaliths come out)  Advent needs to be able to deal with disruptive Matrix on neutral ground(well perhaps advent culture, but no fortifications) with comparable forces. Whether " it's balanced" if a bit different then "whether it's possible to win with enough advantages".  As it stands  TLT bends advent over a table by disabling their fleet synergy leaving them open to a mag-dump of AoE to which the advent fleet can't do much besides take it.

 

Also it's worth noting the problem with disruptive matrix isn't the AoE dump killing your cap-ships, It's mostly the frigates that will die, but even those that live won't change the result of the battle as at that point advent will be so far behind in damage that the battle is as good as lost(sort of hard to compete with a 3000-damage to the advent's entire fleet opener that can't be mitigated or defended against with any of the Advent's defensive tools).
 
End of bilun's quote

You're right, the Advent need a unit that is able to deal good damage to the TLT, without having to rely heavily on abilities.

Maybe the Destra Crusader? It's the closest thing the Advent have to the Kodiak. And I've seen Kodiak spam in the dozens or hundreds prove frighteningly effective against almost any ship. Yeah, you'll probably lose a TON of Crusaders, but, you beeline for the enemy capships (you did say the Marzas AoE are going to do more damage than the titan, right?), pop 'em before they can take out your crusaders, then target the titan.

Sounds far-fetched, especially if they destroy all your kodies before you can pop all their marzas, but I wouldn't discount it as a viable strategy. If you deny the enemy the opportunity to use those AoE synergies you talked about, you might have a chance to beat a TLT (your chances are greatly improved by bringing along your own titan and a few capships, of course).

Then again, I'm unsure when you'd ever have a titan vs. titan battle in a neutral gravity well. This seems like an improbable event, so it doesn't make sense to me to postulate what might happen in this situation. I'm sure it might come up if you own a planet on one side of a space junk and the enemy owns a planet on the other side of it, but even then you can build a starbase in the neutral sector.

In fact, thinking about this some more, it seems like an advent starbase, fully upgraded, is a most excellent way to either scare off or destroy an enemy titan. It puts out more damage than almost anything, and it doesn't give a rat's ass whether the enemy is disabling its abilities or not, as long as it can shoot. And titans aren't particularly optimized to destroy starbases the way that anti-module ships are, so it's still going to take the titan some huffing and puffing to down a starbase. I can't see a TLT being able to take down an advent starbase and a similarly-leveled advent titan (loyalist or rebel), unless the TLT had a superior amount of fleet support behind it. And if it does have a superior fleet, gee, it probably deserves to win.

So, moral of the story? Use advent starbase spam like there's no tomorrow, and be sure to stick your titan right where the enemy TLT is, so that you pretty much force an engagement between their titan and yours plus the starbase -- if it's an AI, you'll probably get the desired engagement and win; if it's a player, they'll probably run away and you "win" by default.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Allquixotic, reply 6
this situation. I'm sure it might come up if you own
End of Allquixotic's quote
Quoting Allquixotic, reply 6

Quoting bilun, reply 5
Sorry, but the opponent being stupid enough(read:AI) to charge headfirst into a fully upgraded starbase+modules and lose with the TLT doesn't really constitute a balanced counter.

 

Staying on the defensive against the TEC loyalists likely won't be an options(then the novaliths come out)  Advent needs to be able to deal with disruptive Matrix on neutral ground(well perhaps advent culture, but no fortifications) with comparable forces. Whether " it's balanced" if a bit different then "whether it's possible to win with enough advantages".  As it stands  TLT bends advent over a table by disabling their fleet synergy leaving them open to a mag-dump of AoE to which the advent fleet can't do much besides take it.

 

Also it's worth noting the problem with disruptive matrix isn't the AoE dump killing your cap-ships, It's mostly the frigates that will die, but even those that live won't change the result of the battle as at that point advent will be so far behind in damage that the battle is as good as lost(sort of hard to compete with a 3000-damage to the advent's entire fleet opener that can't be mitigated or defended against with any of the Advent's defensive tools).
 

You're right, the Advent need a unit that is able to deal good damage to the TLT, without having to rely heavily on abilities.

Maybe the Destra Crusader? It's the closest thing the Advent have to the Kodiak. And I've seen Kodiak spam in the dozens or hundreds prove frighteningly effective against almost any ship. Yeah, you'll probably lose a TON of Crusaders, but, you beeline for the enemy capships (you did say the Marzas AoE are going to do more damage than the titan, right?), pop 'em before they can take out your crusaders, then target the titan.

Sounds far-fetched, especially if they destroy all your kodies before you can pop all their marzas, but I wouldn't discount it as a viable strategy. If you deny the enemy the opportunity to use those AoE synergies you talked about, you might have a chance to beat a TLT (your chances are greatly improved by bringing along your own titan and a few capships, of course).

Then again, I'm unsure when you'd ever have a titan vs. titan battle in a neutral gravity well. This seems like an improbable event, so it doesn't make sense to me to postulate what might happen in this situation. I'm sure it might come up if you own a planet on one side of a space junk and the enemy owns a planet on the other side of it, but even then you can build a starbase in the neutral sector.

In fact, thinking about this some more, it seems like an advent starbase, fully upgraded, is a most excellent way to either scare off or destroy an enemy titan. It puts out more damage than almost anything, and it doesn't give a rat's ass whether the enemy is disabling its abilities or not, as long as it can shoot. And titans aren't particularly optimized to destroy starbases the way that anti-module ships are, so it's still going to take the titan some huffing and puffing to down a starbase. I can't see a TLT being able to take down an advent starbase and a similarly-leveled advent titan (loyalist or rebel), unless the TLT had a superior amount of fleet support behind it. And if it does have a superior fleet, gee, it probably deserves to win.

So, moral of the story? Use advent starbase spam like there's no tomorrow, and be sure to stick your titan right where the enemy TLT is, so that you pretty much force an engagement between their titan and yours plus the starbase -- if it's an AI, you'll probably get the desired engagement and win; if it's a player, they'll probably run away and you "win" by default.
End of Allquixotic's quote

 

Well first off it's less killing the TLT that's the problem.  The problem is surviving an AoE dump during Disruption matrix.  The advent needs a ways to protect their fleet during disruption matrix, not a way to deal damage during it.

 

Also, it's true you may often not fight at neutral wells(though it certainly happens), but against a human opponent, even when fighting in friendly wells you're not likely to be fighting anywhere near a starbase(they will fight you o nthe other side of the well or they won't fight you at all).  Also frankly the most likely place the advent player will have to figtht he TLT is in the TEC player's well.  As I said before due to Novaliths, the Advent player will be forced to go on the offensive.

 

The comment about "on a neutral" well rather then referring to an actujal neutral well was just saying that the advent needs to be able to deal with this ability without relying on the presence of static defenses & local production hubs.  Honestly though I see no practical way to grant the advent this capability.  Things like the marza ult simply aren't balanced when interrupts & AoE shield restore/damage mitigation/hull repair can't be used to defend against it for 11-14 of it's 20 second duration.