Okey so we have a list of stealable techs. The Thalan probably did okey on AIP8 that not why I moved them, it's for a bit more variety in AI's you face.

Xeno Engineering is currently set to Manufacturing, perhaps Economics would be a better choice since AIP11 loves that category. I'll run some tests.

As to Xeno Mystesism. Yeah that's a bit unfortunate. I've seen them grab it and the follow up tech but sometimes they get pulled into their tree and leave it by the way side. The problem is that a higher AI value will drag them into their unique tech and they sometimes "forget" to get their planetary improvements. It's tricky.

Just ran a test with Xeno Economics as Economics for AIP11 races. It seems to help when they innitially skip over it in favor of weapons.

As to Xeno Myst and Precursor history. Tricky one. Perhaps we can force the AI to research them both then wait with Divergent Evolution and Dark Energy research by lowering their AIValues. I'll think about it.

G'night.

I think a fixed the torian! I put ssthem on the altarian behavior and they are in line with everyone! I'm having a great game.

In fact okkojgt

They are in line with everyone else colony wise. Hope that helps with the balancing the colony rush! The Yor still get 300+ colonies a game so...

DARCA I'm a bit puzzled by what you mean. The Torians and Altarians are both on AI Personality 11. Did you change the torian dialogue tag to: <DialogueTag>Altarian</DialogueTag>? If so. That won't fly as it will switch the Torians to Altarian dialogue as well.

@Gaunathor.

Please reconsider your stance on stealing unique tech. We're not giving these techs away and tech stealing is incredibly rare as it is and all the "normal" tech is available for theft as well to make it even less likely you're going to steal a unique tech.

The fact that these techs make a race unique is what makes them so darn interesting for theft because it's going to feel AWESOME when it happens. It's like making money of a lottery ticket. It's a DoT that takes down a raid boss while a sole surviving paladin waits in his bubble. It's getting 2 extra chicken nuggets. 

Imagine being on a losing side of a war and thinking about giving up. Then out of nowhere. BOOM. Self-Healing hulls. Suddenly your ships are repairing much faster and slowly you can push back the advancing armada. Now you'll keep playing and every game you're going to wonder. "Will it happen again?"

People love this random stuff provided it doesn't happen to frequently. Those who don't can turn of tech stealing.

Ran a test with Xeno Engineering on Economy category for AIP11 races (Thalan's excluded, they don't have it). I ran between 10 and 20 tests restarting when the AI picked up Xeno Engineering.

Korx. 100%
Altarians. 100%. Once they got half way through their weapon tree before picking it up but they DID pick it up.
Arceans. 100%
Torians. 100%

This works. It's probably a good idea to change Xeno Industrial Theory to Economics for AIP11 as well.

Now I'll mess around with Xeno Mysticism. I think it's enough for the Altarians and Drath to pick up Xeno Mysticism and hopefully that's enough.

Good. That should really help them out.

I've been going through the tech tree again. Fixing some typos, changing some names and details (only for the Yor so far), making some techs stealable (again), making some techs tradeable again...

Overall, the amount of techs I changed to tradeable and stealable is much higher than previously discussed. I apparently changed my mind regarding some of them. However, I also changed my mind regarding some techs that were on the list (Xeno Intimidation, Way of the Arnor/Dread Lords). Still, be glad that you are able to buy Weather Control again (though you might need to pay an arm and a leg, if the Arceans are willing to sell at all). Slave Pits and Canyons are also back on the list, even though I can't see the Iconians, Thalan, and Yor, use them. But then, neither can I see the Drengin and Korath use Factories, and those have always been tradeable.

Slave Pits and Canyons? Uhmmm... I'm not sure about those... then again... it can't hurt. Any eta on a full re-release? My own version is riddled with my own changes and notes and I don't know which of my suggestions you put in and which you didn't. In fact, I'm not even sure if my Thalan AIP8 to AIP11 went in.

This evening, if all goes well. I just want to get the Korath to research Spore Weapons again.

It's in, but I'm not quite sure about it yet. In fact, most of your changes are in. The only exception I can think of is the change to the Military Starbase techs. I implemented my own, which seems to work okay for now.

AIValue -10 maybe?

Thanks!

If everything else fails, yes.

Xeno Mystisism fix for Altarians.

Xeno Mystisism
AIVAlue to -10 (or 100000 doesn't matter)

Precursor Studies
Category to Economics
AIValue 12.

I'm getting some good results with these settings. The Drath are proving to be a little more difficult.

Arghh darned Drath. Well I got some results at least. Unlike the Altarians the Drath research the XM tree later. Why? Because AIP8 will only research a few things before it goes nuts with manufacturing and weapons. Forcing the Drath to research their XM line causes them to skip over a lot of tech in the beginning of the game and they'll never recover.

(Things like Temples gets lost, e.g)

InvisibleHand
AI to 15

XenoMystisism
AI to 9

Precursor History
AI to 13

Temples
AI to 100. Works better. 

This works... a bit... It's not a 100% sure but I've had some good results and by good I mean:

• Xeno Eng
• Planet Imp, etc
• Planetary Invasion
• Invisible Hand
• War Profit
• AND XM, PH, etc, etc

Ive been doing a bit of fiddeling with the Xeno Ethics and AdvancedStarbaseConstruction aka Military Starbase Construction.

For AIP11 races Xeno Ethics needs a different category and AI value or they won't pick it up. Pure Research works but the AI value needs a bit of tweaking.

AdvancedStarbaseConstruction isn't picked up enough so I ran a test with the ID on Weapons and the Category on Starbase. AIP8 liked this, AIP11 didn't so I changed the category to Military. Worked perfectly.

To prevent the AI from going further I've changed the follow techs to computing/research. This stop them for the most part but I've seen AIP8 pick up a few techs anyway but then AIP8's always been more prone to go for Computing/Research.

It needs a bit of tweaking but I think I can get it to work. Already I'm seeing starbases with some basic defenses which is sorely needed imo.

I've also been messing around with the Arceans and I think they're in a much better place now. I've ensured they grab their space cannon and get several levels of terraforming asap. This helps. Also, and this is just my opinion, but I think the Weather Controller should stand out a little more so I changed the tiles it gives from 3 to 5 for a few extra tiles to make up for their lack of planets. I've also given them a reduction of 75% in logistics.

They're doing much better and grabbing their planets will be a lot more difficult. I'll write up the specifics when the new version is released and I have a chance to integrate them and test them a little more.

I've uploaded a new version. Same link as before.

It includes most of Mabus' changes, and a couple of my own.

Most importantly, the Korath are now more eager to research Spore Weapons. Well, at least they were in the last couple test-games. However, those were only on medium maps, so it may be different on bigger maps and/or more players.

I really hope to see the Korath play more like this in the future:

Too bad the game crashed though. The Korath were about to get Phasors, while the Terrans already had Graviton Drivers.

Downloading now...

Looks good but the Drath are giving me trouble again. Also, how do you guys feel about my suggested change to the Weather Controller? (= more tiles than Biosphere Modulator at no extra costs).

Yes, they still need some work.

It seems a bit much, considering that the tech itself already gives a 10% bonus.

So is the lop-sided colony rush on big maps fixed? I know I had found a way last night. :3

Something I was thinking about in my last test game - do you think that the ability point cost for planet quality is in line with the improvement that it offers?

What I mean by that, is that when I go out and colonise a bunch of PQ 6 worlds, if I have +2 to PQ as an ability then they're first of all PQ 8 after colonisation, and after terraforming they're at least PQ 11.  This considerably expands the number of planets that are viable.

Granted, 8 points is a lot to burn on the customisation screen, but two extra tiles per planet is pretty damn good.

Morning,

Fair point.

Since +PQ was introduced in the techtrees it probably is a bit over the top.

Last evening I spend some time with the latest release but I didn't have the time (or energy) to give it my full attnetion.

Arceans

I did implement some changes for the Arceans I'd come up and they seem to work. Their planets are fortresses. It needs tweaking but I like where it's heading.

Thalan

I could have SWORN the Thalan did in my own version of the mod. There's probably a value missing somewhere. Rigth now they dive into:

Interstellar Construction -> Remedial Engineering -> Basic gravitonics.

They should head down into:

Planetary Adaptation -> Stellar Production/Xeno Colonisation.

I have a sneaking suspicion why. I'll fix it.

Drath

Like I mentioned the Drath are giving me some trouble but I'll see if I can fix them. 

Altarians

Xeno Mystisism to AI 55
Precursor Studies to Economics. AI to 12.

This seems to do the trick! I've seen the Altarians grab all their tech this way. It's cool .

Feel free to have a look and give me your feed back.

Suggestion.

What if we split the races into three groups of 4 and each one of us focuses on optimizing those races in the coming week. When we're done we push out a new master version and each of us tests the other's races. This reduces the amount of races you need to test by four, gives each of us feed back from two sources and increases the chance we spot weird stuff.

Also, we need a testing plan with clearly defined parameters how to judge an AI's research and planet progression. For example.

Arceans Research

1. Planetary Improvements Before Xeno Geology
   If the reverse happens the AI will dive into Weather Control -> Extreme Col. and fail to grab its manufacturing, research, etc.
2. Grinds to Xeno Factories quickly
   Ensures production of big ships. 
3. Basic and Enhanced Logistics Before Advanced Hulls
   Ensures better usage of bigger hulls and bigger fleets
4. 1 tier weapon research Before Medium Scale Building
   Ensures medium ships with some decent firepower
5. At least one level of Terra forming Before Weather Control
   Ensures they have a lot of tiles to make up for their lack of planets and to make room for the Weather Controller. 
6. Planetary Fortification
   Shortly after weapon research begins
7. etc

I'm quite happy to test anything you guys throw at us, but I'm a bit hesitant to start fiddling with the AI values myself.

Good point about getting more feedback on optimizations, though.  Splitting the races into groups and seeing how they fare means that there's more chance that weird stuff will be noticed (or that an optimization simply hasn't taken as it should have) which means we can feed that back sooner.

Using less than the maximum number of races in a standard test game would also allow us to see how they do when they have a bit more breathing room.

It would be a PQ 7, not 8 (6 x 0.2 = 1.2 rounded down to 1).

The only thing I've overlooked is to change Basic Gravitronics to Computing. All the values are there, as far as I can tell. I thought, I might have forgotten to remove the -10 from Interstellar Construction, but that's not the case either.

I'm not seeing how changing an Iconian tech would help the Altarians.

Fine by me.