Tohron

Join Date 11/2008

Double Bonused Projects Make the Govern Sliders Obsolete

Right now, a Research Project converts 1/4 of your social production into research, and an Economic Stimulus converts 1/4 of that social production into wealth. The converted production is then eligible for research or wealth bonuses.

What this means is that if you run 100% social production, and have more than a +300% production bonus (let's say your bonus is +400%). Let's say you generate 20 base production (which means you generate 20 base research at 100% research). A Research Project would then generate 20 * ((1+400%) / 4) = 25 research, 25% more than you get by just running 100% research.

So how to you get to +300% production? Besides improvements, 9 maxed economic starbases will get you to +315% (a world can get bonuses from a maximum of 12 starbases), a well-leveled Singularity Power Planet will give over +100% manufacturing to all your worlds, and a Manufacturing Relic with 3 Archaeology upgrades will give about +33% to all your worlds. So, getting to +300% isn't too hard, and once you're there, you have no reason to run research or wealth ever again - those options will always be outperformed by projects.

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Gilmoy

Join Date 12/2009

+41

Correct, and as intended.

The deeper issue is: does such a planet beat an all-research specialist planet? i.e. is your civilization's upper bound +mp% bonus four times greater than your upper bound +rp% bonus? I think it can't be. So it still pays to specialize all 3 separately.

What you do gain is flexibility. All of your forgeworlds can agilely shift to rp or bc each turn, whichever one you need more.

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Quoting Gilmoy,

reply 1

Correct, and as intended.

The deeper issue is: does such a planet beat an all-research specialist planet? i.e. is your civilization's upper bound +mp% bonus four times greater than your upper bound +rp% bonus? I think it can't be. So it still pays to specialize all 3 separately.

What you do gain is flexibility. All of your forgeworlds can agilely shift to rp or bc each turn, whichever one you need more.

The thing is, the 25 research from the project in my example would then get multiplied by whatever research bonuses the planet has. So if the planet has +400% research, you end up generating 125 research from the project, but only 100 research by going 100% research. And, as my example demonstrates, you can get +300% manufacturing to a planet without needing any manufacturing buildings (though including a few results in better multiplier stacking than going all-out on wealth or research improvements). Thus, you might have a dedicated research world, but it will get that way by funneling 100% social production into a research project, rather than running 100% research.

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androshalforc

Join Date 03/2007

+62

Quoting Gilmoy,

reply 1

The deeper issue is: does such a planet beat an all-research specialist planet? i.e. is your civilization's upper bound +mp% bonus four times greater than your upper bound +rp% bonus? I think it can't be. So it still pays to specialize all 3 separately.

yes as soon as you hit a bonus of 300% manufacturing it becomes better to use projects with 100% focus on social production

because it multiplies your manufacturing bonus by your research bonus where as going pure research/economy would simply add your bonus's together

i think you would still want to specialize youre planets but they should be M/E or M/R specialization rather then M,E or R specialization

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androshalforc

Join Date 03/2007

+62

Actually it makes all construction obesolete as well as soon as you hit that 300% manuf bonus each point of manufacturing is worth more converted to wealth then it is when used as manufacturing. this means you should stop all cunstruction and just quick buy everything.

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Gilmoy

Join Date 12/2009

+41

Except that Rush buying costs (15 bc/1 mp), on top of Economic Stimulus's (4 mp/1 raw bc). Multiply that out, and you get (60 mp => 1 mp). Whoops!

Suppose 1 bp (billion pop) create 1 raw mp.
At +300% manuf, 1.0 raw mp => 4.0 mp.
So 60 bp = 60.0 raw mp => 240.0 mp.
240.0 mp / 4 (per Economic Stimulus) = 60.0 raw wealth.
Suppose you have +0% wealth. Then 60.0 raw => 60.0 bc (billion credits). Note that 60 bp = 60 bc at the equilibrium point of +300% manuf + Economic Stimulus, which is exactly what you'd expect. You need +301%+ to make a profit using Economic Stimulus.
60.0 bc / 15 bc (per 1 mp's worth of any buildable item) = 4.0 mp. Your 60 bp rush-bought only 4.0 mp worth of buildable.
If you had just set 60 bp to manuf directly, then you'd have 240 mp. Use that to build directly, and you get 240.0 instead of 4.0.

Rush-buying is worse by 60-to-1!

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Quoting Gilmoy,

reply 5

Except that Rush buying costs (15 bc/1 mp), on top of Economic Stimulus's (4 mp/1 raw bc). Multiply that out, and you get (60 mp => 1 mp). Whoops!

Suppose 1 bp (billion pop) create 1 raw mp.

At +300% manuf, 1.0 raw mp => 4.0 mp.

So 60 bp = 60.0 raw mp => 240.0 mp.

240.0 mp / 4 (per Economic Stimulus) = 60.0 raw wealth.

Suppose you have +0% wealth. Then 60.0 raw => 60.0 bc (billion credits). Note that 60 bp = 60 bc at the equilibrium point of +300% manuf + Economic Stimulus, which is exactly what you'd expect. You need +301%+ to make a profit using Economic Stimulus.

60.0 bc / 15 bc (per 1 mp's worth of any buildable item) = 4.0 mp. Your 60 bp rush-bought only 4.0 mp worth of buildable.

If you had just set 60 bp to manuf directly, then you'd have 240 mp. Use that to build directly, and you get 240.0 instead of 4.0.

Rush-buying is worse by 60-to-1!

Rush buying is of course bad. But your math is also flawed, I don't know all the numbers without digging in the xml files, but production is now on a degrading scale. So its super planets will have less production then they used to. If I recall the discussion from the last dev stream it starts deteriorating around 80bp.

*edit put wrong word, made sentence confusing

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Looking at rush buying in more detail: if rush-buying costs 15 credits per mp, that means you need to have at least a +6000% bonus to economy to make economic stimuli more viable. In actuality, the bonus would have to be larger than that, because it would also have to outweigh the added production you'd get by having more manufacturing structures instead of wealth structures. A max-leveled Financial Sector gives +220% econ, so you'd probably need a world that could fit over 30 of those while still getting good manufacturing bonuses and a high population. I don't think even Iridia could be boosted quite that high.

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androshalforc

Join Date 03/2007

+62

i have a rebuttal but am too tired to think right now in the morning

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