Hunam_ Hunam_

Main storyline quest. Will we have RGB explosions in the end?

Main storyline quest. Will we have RGB explosions in the end?

I'm slightly concerned with this issue since ME was brutally butchered by the last 5 minutes of the game.

The questions are:

a) will we have categorically different multiple (at least 3) endings?

b ) will there be fail ending(s)? (SC2 had it in a form of an ugly time limit)

c) will it be banal good vs evil or something interesting?.. (like ME, but not entirely like SC2)

 

Here's an example of a main quest tree:

Cool things about it:

a) you CAN fail

b ) even after your first couple of choices you can still return to the opposite side of "spectrum"

c) even after you're through the half of the Red storyline you still can achieve the Green ending

d) having chosen "positive" actions through the half of the Green storyline will not guarantee your win

e) one of the choices "l" presents you with an opportunity to make all 5 available final choices, 2 of which will make you fail (not that the player would know)

 

If half of the storyline choices will be "gray" (not clearly positive or negative) then it'll make the player think about his decisions a little more than I'll click green, 'cause I'm paragon or red 'cause I'm renegade. If you got really creative writers then some choices can be made to look negative when presented and the end would reveal them to be positive and otherwise. Ex.: some bad bad race lost their war and you have a choice to dearm and leave them to themselves (positively gray choice), subjugate them (negatively gray choice) or kill them off (negative choice). So, the first choice isn't necessarily "good" as they can potentially "close-up" for future revenge with guierilla tactics. Second is also not necessarily "bad" as they realize their "bad" way and reform their mentality making them a good good race. Third option will prevent any future negative outcomes, but is a very negative act in itself (from humanity standpoint). The way player predicts his choice outcome when choosing can be realized in form of verbal nudges from other characters preceding the choice event. If Tywom and Mukay both say that you better kill off that bad race, but Tywom are your enemies and Mukay are your allies, than maybe Mukay are wrong and you should keep that race alive since the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Something like that.

268,800 views 81 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 19


Quoting Hunam_,

^ could be anything. I don't disagree.

From business stand point, you wanna satisfy all your customers. So, you include as many ending as you can.

"I won by exterminating all the aliens. Humans now rule the galaxy. We can live in peace, under my thumb."

This can absolutely be one of the "win" endings if devs are willing so. It just doesn't correlate with reality too much.



Well, neither does playing nicey-nice correlate with reality. There's always another enemy, and there are two more sequels to SCR planned.

 

As an alternate and less glib response to you, Hunam, consider what you are saying about your failure endings. You've said that being a despot leads to failure. Thus, you are saying that being a despot is bad. Thus, you are trying to convince me to be good and to play the game like you want me to play it. 

From a metagame standpoint, why would I ever want to make selfish decisions if I'm going to be stuck in a failed ending?

End of IBNobody's quote

It doesn't, but it does from a Grand Tale standpoint. I guess I forgot to mention that.

Aren't all games designed in a way that dev expects player to play?.. Besides that, how are you going to know that you're gonna get a "deaded" ending? Or do you youtube your games before playing them? Unless you do that, you can't be convinced to play either way and you have no right to complain. I want the Story to convince me to play what I think is best at the current moment in game. I want non-obvious good/bad choices. ME did that pretty good. They just massively failed to resolve those choices properly. I want closure in the end. Be it bleak, full of bitter and disappointing emotions or regular happy end with party and fireworks.

Games with ambiguous endings for the most part are just lazy writing/poor creativeness that's often being disguised under "artistic integrity". Artistic integrity in commercial product... Ok... I just really, really don't want SC to have ME type of ending(s).

Reply #27 Top

There was an alignment system in SC2. The aliens remember if you piss them off. We aren't adding anything new. We are just expanding it to offer multiple win scenarios.

 

An example would have been to allow humans to join the hierarchy of thrall.

 

The point of having multiple non canon endings is that the player does not know which is canon or not until the sequel comes out a few years later.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 27

There was an alignment system in SC2. The aliens remember if you piss them off.
End of IBNobody's quote

 

That's not alignment that is a Reputation based system and is separate from your alignment albeit with some overlap.

Reputation is usually localized while Alignment is world based.

 

Your reputation (good or bad) with the Pkunks would not affect your reputation with the Ilwrath that greatly.

You can be bad with one race and good with another. 

Annihilating one alien race would not turn your allies into enemies (unless the alien race you annihilated was actually an allied race).

 

Alignment is more like what you would see in Star Wars based games with KOTOR.

 

 

So you could be the universe's most evil character but if no one knows you (reputation), no one could care less for you.....

 

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Reply #29 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 26

It doesn't, but it does from a Grand Tale standpoint. I guess I forgot to mention that.

Aren't all games designed in a way that dev expects player to play?.. Besides that, how are you going to know that you're gonna get a "deaded" ending? Or do you youtube your games before playing them? Unless you do that, you can't be convinced to play either way and you have no right to complain. I want the Story to convince me to play what I think is best at the current moment in game. I want non-obvious good/bad choices. ME did that pretty good. They just massively failed to resolve those choices properly. I want closure in the end. Be it bleak, full of bitter and disappointing emotions or regular happy end with party and fireworks.

Games with ambiguous endings for the most part are just lazy writing/poor creativeness that's often being disguised under "artistic integrity". Artistic integrity in commercial product... Ok... I just really, really don't want SC to have ME type of ending(s).
End of Hunam_'s quote

(Be careful with ME. I have not played the series yet.)

I don't YouTube before I play, but I do look up missables and story branches. I don't want to get the bad ending. It sucks that I have to do this, because I'd rather play the game blind, make decisions based on how I wanted to play, and not have to worry about choosing the losing path. This is why I'm supportive of your branching, but each branch needs to lead to winning scenarios and not losing ones. Or rather, don't make me pick and choose between a full winning ending and a bittersweet ending. Make them all a full win, or make them all bittersweet. (Or do a Fallout-style slide-show with micro-endings.)

Ambiguous endings are not okay, but grand story endings that tell everything that happens to you after you win are not okay either. Give us some structure, but let us decide how we think the world ended.

 

Again, I don't disagree with your overall outlook. I just disagree with having failure endings.

 

Quoting Xenove, reply 28

That's not alignment that is a Reputation based system and is separate from your alignment albeit with some overlap.

End of Xenove's quote

No need to split hairs on this. I'm defining alignment as reputation. Not good vs. evil, but selfish vs. altruistic or xenophobic vs. diplomatic. Jihadists think they are doing God's work, after all.

Reply #30 Top

^ I feel ya, but for me, personally, I'd like a good drama at the end if I was being naughty.

I called it "fail" ending 'cause it is the opposite of original intent of the Story and I think it's great to have an option to fail in a game that you're not meant to fail in. I think SC is one of those supposedly happy ended games, but freedom of choice is a sweet sweet thing. I absolutely adore Tali's suicide scene in ME, even though I've never gotten it in my playthrough.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 30

^ I feel ya, but for me, personally, I'd like a good drama at the end if I was being naughty.
End of Hunam_'s quote

Ok, but why can't you have that drama too if you were being good?

Reply #32 Top

^ sure, you can. I was never against it. I'm just for more options, keeping all of them as much different as possible. That would benefit alot of folks cause of replay value.

Reply #33 Top

I actually have a great deal if experience with alignement systems, that was a major part of how my MMO top down space combat game worked.  That's why I said "to do it well" as an adventure game you would basically need 3 different stories.  Just following the same storyline with different conversation reactions that have no actual impact on the progress of the story is not "doing it well".  For an adventure game, which is all about the story, that's not good enough.  I am not against "alignment type" of responses to questions like you have mentioned, but that is not really allowing the player to be good or evil and forge a different outcome because of that, they are just "self contained" responses in a single conversation that are ultimately unrelated to the full story.

To truly achieve your "glorious vision" (that's a game design term I use, not an insult of any kind) there would really need to be another version of the story written for each possible alignment.

 

Reply #34 Top

I'm into consequence game play. Multi path endings are cool but in the end state there is a desired outcome that the designers want for the game players. I just hope that I can play the way I want and still be able to finish the game.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting SavageMind1, reply 34

Multi path endings are cool but in the end state there is a desired outcome that the designers want for the game players.
End of SavageMind1's quote

That's the sliiipperyyy slope the last games of ME went through....  :-"

Reply #36 Top

I have faith in Stardock to do the right thing by their gamers. The fact we have input as founders says a lot toward their commitment.

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Reply #37 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 29


Quoting Hunam_,

It doesn't, but it does from a Grand Tale standpoint. I guess I forgot to mention that.

Aren't all games designed in a way that dev expects player to play?.. Besides that, how are you going to know that you're gonna get a "deaded" ending? Or do you youtube your games before playing them? Unless you do that, you can't be convinced to play either way and you have no right to complain. I want the Story to convince me to play what I think is best at the current moment in game. I want non-obvious good/bad choices. ME did that pretty good. They just massively failed to resolve those choices properly. I want closure in the end. Be it bleak, full of bitter and disappointing emotions or regular happy end with party and fireworks.

Games with ambiguous endings for the most part are just lazy writing/poor creativeness that's often being disguised under "artistic integrity". Artistic integrity in commercial product... Ok... I just really, really don't want SC to have ME type of ending(s).



(Be careful with ME. I have not played the series yet.)

I don't YouTube before I play, but I do look up missables and story branches. I don't want to get the bad ending. It sucks that I have to do this, because I'd rather play the game blind, make decisions based on how I wanted to play, and not have to worry about choosing the losing path. This is why I'm supportive of your branching, but each branch needs to lead to winning scenarios and not losing ones. Or rather, don't make me pick and choose between a full winning ending and a bittersweet ending. Make them all a full win, or make them all bittersweet. (Or do a Fallout-style slide-show with micro-endings.)


Ambiguous endings are not okay, but grand story endings that tell everything that happens to you after you win are not okay either. Give us some structure, but let us decide how we think the world ended.

 

Again, I don't disagree with your overall outlook. I just disagree with having failure endings.

 


Quoting Xenove,


That's not alignment that is a Reputation based system and is separate from your alignment albeit with some overlap.



No need to split hairs on this. I'm defining alignment as reputation. Not good vs. evil, but selfish vs. altruistic or xenophobic vs. diplomatic. Jihadists think they are doing God's work, after all.

End of IBNobody's quote

 

That's just being a poor sport, man. It's okay to lose.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 37

That's just being a poor sport, man. It's okay to lose.

End of Volusianus's quote

Sure, it's okay to lose a strategy game. This isn't a strategy game. This is an adventure / role-playing game. This is a story. Endings color our enjoyment of the story.

Consider the movie "No Country for Old Men". It was a great movie ruined by a horrible ending. When I think of the movie, I always remember how disappointed I was when the credits rolled. If I were to rate the movie, I'd give it low marks because of the ending.

 

I can hear you now... "But, IBN! Movies are movies! You don't play a movie! You aren't in control of what happens on-screen!"

 

It does not matter. An ending is an ending. I want that ending to meet my standards. I want that ending to be satisfying, regardless of what choices I make. Different paths can lead to different endings, but I want ALL endings to be equally satisfying.

 

(EDIT: I also know your feelings on replaying games when you lose. I don't have anything new to contribute to that line of argument. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm curious, though, if you ever played an RPG other than SC2, got a losing ending the first playthrough, and replayed it.)

 

 

I'll have more to post about this soon, as I am currently reading Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire series. The main character, Jorg, is a sociopath. That's how I would want to play SCR. I would hope that the ending I receive fits the character and that it does not make me feel that I "should have been a goodie-two-shoes".

Reply #39 Top

Seven Pounds has soul crushing ending, but that just makes the movie sooooooo dam good. Actually, the ending alone makes that movie.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 39

Seven Pounds has soul crushing ending, but that just makes the movie sooooooo dam good. Actually, the ending alone makes that movie.
End of Hunam_'s quote

(I have not seen it, so please don't spoil it.)

Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 1 had a fantastic ending as well, and it was a tragedy.

But you see? That validates my point. These have a satisfying ending that fits with the narrative of the story.

I do not believe that Stardock can write a satisfying tragic ending without tailoring the entire narrative into an inescapable failure scenario. 

The narratives you wrote about Earth Supreme Emperor Nobody were not satisfying because I didn't think I earned dying under my table due to suicide. I would have needed something to push myself there, such as losing the alien that I loved. If I just off'ed myself because I lost control during a civil war, I (the player) would feel disappointed in the ending and in the game.

 

And if you disappoint me, why would I buy the sequels? I'm not a Bethesda fan, after all...

Reply #41 Top

^ Well, I didn't mean suicide under "red fail". Note "poison" is quote marked. That was just an example anyway.

 

Quoting IBNobody, reply 40

I do not believe that Stardock can write a satisfying tragic ending without tailoring the entire narrative into an inescapable failure scenario.
End of IBNobody's quote

 

Why do you think the narrative needs to be tailored to any resolution at all?.... Absolutely not. The story should flow in a natural order of things (things that you affect, tailoring the story to your "unique" ending).

Reply #42 Top
Quoting Hunam_, reply 41

Why do you think the narrative needs to be tailored to any resolution at all?.... Absolutely not. The story should flow in a natural order of things (things that you affect, tailoring the story to your "unique" ending).

End of Hunam_'s quote

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not asking them to tailor the narrative. I'm saying that I don't think they can give us a satisfying tragedy *within the structure of the non-linear, branching narrative game (and still have non-tragic endings)*. Therefore I think they shouldn't do it!

In order for a tragic ending to be satisfying, the narrative has to build toward the tragedy. Otherwise, you get a "Kor'ah destroyed everything, better luck next time" ending that isn't very satisfying. "Oh.... I lost? WTF? What a stupid game! 0/10 on Metacritic! Thumbs Down on Steam! Ending SUXXXXXXXX!"

 

(*Edited to clarify.*)

Reply #43 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 38


I'm curious, though, if you ever played an RPG other than SC2, got a losing ending the first playthrough, and replayed it.
End of IBNobody's quote

 

Yup, several times, actually. I've replayed Fallout several times despite "losing". Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Day of the tentacle. Even the original X-Com could be loosely included, and even the "winning" ending was pretty bleak. I'd also highly recommend playing Undertale, because that game is like 90% losing, with 2 or 3 positive endings. Granted, Undertale is intended to be played multiple times because of how the world "remembers" your previous playthroughs. STALKER and Metro also come to mind.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 43

Yup, several times, actually. I've replayed Fallout several times despite "losing". Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Day of the tentacle. Even the original X-Com could be loosely included, and even the "winning" ending was pretty bleak. I'd also highly recommend playing Undertale, because that game is like 90% losing, with 2 or 3 positive endings. Granted, Undertale is intended to be played multiple times because of how the world "remembers" your previous playthroughs. STALKER and Metro also come to mind.

End of Volusianus's quote

Do you feel that the majority of gamers share your gaming habits?

Reply #45 Top

Majority Fallacy: "That the largest market segment is the most lucrative is a mistaken belief leading to this type of strategic error. Due to intense rivalry among a large number of competitors it may be the least profitable one in reality."


Take majority out of the discussion.




Reply #46 Top

But they are making a game.  Pretty much all high-budget games are made to appeal to the widest audience possible.  Many games fail financially, few go into it willing to make something they think will only appeal to a small segment of gamers.  The need to appeal to the casual gamer, mass market audience is an overriding factor in most game design decisions.  I would love a space exploration game that was like a submarine simulation in spaceships, but I probably won't ever get to play that game because so few people would like it that nobody will ever make it.

The majority is an important factor in making a game unless you are wealthy and funding your own dream game yourself.

 

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 45

Majority Fallacy: "That the largest market segment is the most lucrative is a mistaken belief leading to this type of strategic error. Due to intense rivalry among a large number of competitors it may be the least profitable one in reality."

Take majority out of the discussion.

End of Volusianus's quote

That feels like an admission. :P 

No, seriously. It's a legitimate question. Do you feel that the majority of gamers share your gaming habits? I'm asking because I'd like to understand your perceptions better.

Reply #48 Top

Quoting Kavik_Kang, reply 46

But they are making a game.  Pretty much all high-budget games are made to appeal to the widest audience possible.  Many games fail financially, few go into it willing to make something they think will only appeal to a small segment of gamers.  The need to appeal to the casual gamer, mass market audience is an overriding factor in most game design decisions.  I would love a space exploration game that was like a submarine simulation in spaceships, but I probably won't ever get to play that game because so few people would like it that nobody will ever make it.

The majority is an important factor in making a game unless you are wealthy and funding your own dream game yourself.

 
End of Kavik_Kang's quote

It's a trap! Run, Kavik! RRRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNN!

Reply #49 Top

I feel like the majority of PC gamers do, yes. And I mean people who actively spend significant amounts of money to play games on PCs, not people who happen to play games on a PC, that distinction is important.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 49

I feel like the majority of PC gamers do, yes. And I mean people who actively spend significant amounts of money to play games on PCs, not people who happen to play games on a PC, that distinction is important.
End of Volusianus's quote

 

So you feel that the majority of the PCMR choose to replay a beaten game to tease out a new ending instead of playing a stockpiled Steam game? (When they aren't playing an online game, that is.) And you also feel they would be okay with playing a 40+ hour RPG only to lose? Finally...What about the level of completion? Do you feel that the PCMR majority completes single player games?