kona: When you said "well who is gonna stop us?", let me tell you this: its arrogant comments like this that give Americans a bad name. You can be proud of yourself.

da_zman: I admire your faith. Sorry if I don't share it, if I even find it a bit naive. But as I said, time will tell. The oil in Iraq was not owned by the government before the 70's. The oil in Iraq was the property of the 7 sisters (American/British oil companies). That was before OPEC.
Will the after-Saddam still be member of OPEC?
Time will tell.

BTW: I heard that the interim government in Iraq may be run by an American general and last as much as two years. Whoa... not sure the Iraqis will like that. Sounds like occupation more than liberation to me. But what do I know.

Hey Paxx you wish you were American? (a question not a putdown) You could come down here and explain to my all my various military family your thoughts on why my comment was bad. Then get laughed at.

I didn't say it was incorrect. I'm sure nobody could stop the US if they wanted to invade the whole world. When the elephant tells the mouse: "I could crush you if I wanted to", it's arrogance.

>> @shu: Ask yourself *when* they blew it up. Was it the first few rounds of attacks? No, it was days after... right after Saddam had broadcast an inflamatory speech. The US had destroyed much of the Iraqi military communication, and Saddam Hussein was on television directing people how to fight. On top of that Iraqi television was broadcasting the same thing their ignorant press conferences have to say, that the US is out for the wholesale genocide of the Iraqi people, yadda, yadda, yadda. Since Iraqi television is the only outlet for news most Iraqis have, it is as much a weapon as a bomb. I remember listening to him and hearing 'zionist plot' or some such about a half dozen times and thinking to myself, why are they letting this worm speak publically anyway? The bomb made sense to me.

Dear bakerstreet, my point exactly. The Iraqis are learning this from the leader: using media and propoganda to influence minds and hearts, to win wars. Don't tell me that you are afraid of the itsy bitsy Iraqi media, are you? Please flick the remote, surf the channels and tell me if you can access any of those 'ignorant' (Arabic) channels... In most probability, their transmission is being blacked out in the USA, not much better than in Iraq right? Other than small clippings of some protests, the 'enlightened' channels are dishing out stuff fed to them by the 'coalition' (I still do not believe that it should be called that: its basically two countries with a dash of this and a bit of that) war machinery: embedded journalists, central command briefings and all... They too show only one side of the story, the one that doesn't embaress the US and the UK.


>>just to quote myself "this has nothing to do with oil"... so stop pretending it does... America won't control the oil... that's absurd, Iraqi oil companies will control Iraqi oil... you guys didn't buy those tin foil helmets to keep the aliens from reading your minds did you?? don't believe everything you see or hear... this war is about peace and democracy... some people need to die so that others may have a chance to live free.. it's unfortunate... but that's life, i would give my life to save another's, and so would many other americans... Americans don't give their lives for oil, that's absurd

da_zman20... How naive can you get... You say that America won't control the oil. You are right about that one. The British oil companies are gonna haggle for their share too. So its gonna be a 'coalition' control. It will be Iraqi companies who will drill for the oil, but it would be sold through Western companies only!!! So it amounts to a lot, and I do mean a lot of commission. And you are right, US citizens don't give their lives for oil alone... There are post war construction contracts to look after too. And (please correct me if I am wrong) oil IS the lifeline in today's world. The one who controls its flow, controls the world. The US gets most of its oil from its own wells, so it need not fear domination. But it controls the distribution of Saudi Arabian and Kuwaiti oil (I won't believe that these nations would dare selling their production to countries on the 'enemy' list of the US) and after the war, will control the Iraqi production too. And hence control the world (there was a story of oil being quoted in euros instead of dollars, weakening the dollar, before the war. I hate to think that this should've been another factor). And for THAT, US citizens would give their lives, because they equate their liberty with their 'lone superpower' status.


>>Speak the truth, brother! We are proud to be Americans. As for the rest of the world, sorry about your luck. No one can stop us!

Tch tch kona0197... thats the kinda attitude that has earned you so many enemies around the world. After 9/11, there were many people saying 'Why us? Why would somebody want to hurt the US?' While I condemn the attacks and sympathise with the victims, I, alongwith so many others around the world, feel that this is the result of US's own doings. One hand, they claim to be the conscience of the world, but on the other, they look the other way, help in fact, tyrants, tyrannies and terrorists. This double game had to blow up in their face some time or the other, though most of us 'outsiders' feel that the incident was cruel and barbaric and it shouldn't have happened.


>>And the US is being accused of hitting the same marketplace, again, a day later, killing another 50 people.

Not the same marketplace bakerstreet, a different one. Do you think that a city like Baghdad survives only off one marketplace?


>>China might TRY to stop us. The other reason no one screws with us is the fact we have the worlds largest and most powerful nukes. A few well placed ICBM's from a few trident subs and China would be gone. They call it a deterent for a reason.

I pity you kona0197, and I pity your thoughts.
Firstly, it greatly distresses a guy like me to see someone believe that their security lies in their ability to kill others. I hope that the 'US Imperialism' (it is imperialism, like the Roman Empire, Alexander's conquest, the British Empire: follows the same rule, destroy all opposition, cut down competitors; conquer what you can under one pretext or another and install puppet or dependent governments/rulers to face the ire and leave an ample military force behind to 'protect' the nation) lasts forever for your sake. Though I doubt it will, because history has shown otherwise.
Secondly, do you think that China is an impotent nation? And for that matter Russia, France, Germany, Japan. Forget them, I do not think that your government has the balls to take on North Korea... Did you know that Japan and Germany have the requisite technology to build Nuclear bombs within a month? Even a 'Third World' (I've always despised the tag) nation like India has nuclear bombs and has a successful space program. There are quite a number of Indian satellites in space launched from indigenously developed launch vehicles. How long before those launch vehicles are turned into ICBMs? China can very well respond to the ICBMs from a Trident sub, its just that they are shrewd and they are looking to defeat you by becoming an economic superpower and basically eating the US setup from within like termites. So good luck.

And I am sorry if I came across as a stupid American. I am just upset about how we are being treated in this war. I get enough junk from the protesters here at home.

@shu, about shutting down Iraki TV: I must say that's it's normal. Strategically, that's the first thing to do, shut down all communication systems within the country. Really can't blame the US/UK for doing it.
But Irakis probably now all gather at their neighbours who have a satellite dish to watch Al Jazira.

@shu
You disgust me. What I said before was direct /me at others comments.

oops. drop the name.

this is the reason I wanted to stay out of this conversation. You guys take thing way to seriously. And you take things out of context. Usually when I say something it is directed at a certain person. But I am quickly learning to keep my mouth shut about the war because everyone here, even Jafo, bites off my head when I voice my opinion. Grow up you guys. Now I will sit back and watch you all snicker at each other.
And remember I do not exist. >

Testosteron removed, who want total global war, with the USA in the middle?
Who wants China dn the USA going head to head?
Who wants the draft put back in place?
Who wants years and years of conflict around the world for our children and their children?
Who want to bury their kids, or their neibhors kids, cousins kids, brothers or sisters kids?
Who wants War? All out kill everything that moves that isn't standing on our side of the firing line war, Island hopping, burn em to a cripy critter, pink mist, brain matter spattering, intesting spewing, hand to hand throat cutting War?

I know I don't and to even depict that I do by saying such things as "Who can stop us, etc" would seem to me to only lower myself to mindless banter...

For one thing "Who could stop us?" the world, did it twice in past history with germany... No I am not saying we are the same as either of those people(s) at those respective times in history. What I am saying is world perception drove governments to act in the end...

So that kind of statement is kinda moot, because the World could stop us, it might take many years, but in the end they could and would stop us, or there wouldn't be a planet worth calling Earth, Rock maybe, that which used to be able to sustain life maybe...

That is not seen as a good perception or attitude of the bar room drunk who bullys his way around telling everyone, I'm gonna kick his ass, and no one can stop me! If you think you can just get out of your chair.
How is it any different when applied to this issue? Can someone hold up, build upon and strengthen a position while detracting from it all at the same time? The point is not to beat someone over the head with your position it is to present it and have it seen as valid enough to either be taken up by those it is presented to or at least used as a means of consideration, a tool, which lends to a positive resulting opinion as best as can be expected.

Otherwise all that is being done is the same thing as the bar room bully... I'm bigger than you, I'm meaner than you' sit down or I beat you up. In this case your speaking of killing them, defeating them in war.

anyway...

screwed up as it is, my pov...
but there are better manners in which to epxress the emotions involved with such an issue without lowering to such a level...

boy am I out to win friends and influance people, have to dust off and read that book again, what color is your parachute also I guess....

kona?....who is this kona? don' know a kona....

kona197, that was my intention. My comment was not aimed at you, but your line of thinking, your train of thoughts.

US citizens still harp about something that happened one and a half years ago. How many people died in that attack, four thousand? Five thousand? Ten? Did you know that more than thrice that have died in less than a decade in Jammu and Kashmir (all from one single community of Kashmiri pandits)? Do you know that on 12th March, 1993, the economic hub of India, Mumbai (then Bombay) experienced thirteen (13) earth shattering bomb blasts, and yet, the next day, the whole of Mumbai went to their jobs, schools, colleges, etc? Did you know that this week, there were 24 deaths (in one night) in a village in Kashmir, children, women and men gunned down by terrorists? Did you know that two weeks back there was a bomb blast in a Mumbai suburban local transport train which killed 20 people, all innocent civilians? Did you know that I was supposed to be on that train and missed it due to an engagement that lasted longer than I expected? Hell, these are only the incidents I remember, recollect and have experienced. There are many more in India and there are thousands of others around the world... Do you even care? You don't because you are not affected... and you expect sympathy and understanding from us. Yet we do understand, because we have been through the same. I just pray that others would do the same. We all need to show a bit of understanding.

And anyway all this talk about "who could stop us".... Since when has the United States started making plans to completely take over and dominate the world? I guess I must have missed that one on the news....

Hey paxx, I know the startegic importance of taking out Iraqi TV, in fact I am amazed that the US resisted this temptation for so long.
But what I do not like is people accusing the Arabic channels of potraying the war in a manner that it sounds like (is; in fact) Iraqi propoganda. The western channels are no better. Their reporting is as biased. They should remember that when you point one finger at others, there are three fingers pointing at you.

First of all you guys can point your minds and typing somewhere other than me. I guess I am ignorant. I don't usually think about the worlds problems unless it happened here in the US. My comment of "Who could stop us?" will probably get me hanged. For what it is worth, I'm sorry. I got caught up in the moment.
Please leave me alone.
>

@shu.. you comment about harping isn't about to win any converts sad to say or any un impinged understanding either...

History is a living thing, even if we as a nation do not totally grasp that concept. 9/11 is etched in peoples minds, the emotions, fears, anger, hate, need to lash out, everything it evoked sits right under the surface in many. Many do not even htink of it much anymore on a daily or even regular basis, life has resumed, reality has set in, people are in financial situations that consume them and their thoughts, birthdays, deaths, war, all these things are the reality of the moment, but 9/11 sits there, smoldering, waiting, building, it will not be forgotten out of hand, it will not be forgotten for a very long time for many if ever. It *is* a trigger point that needs be addressed in a thought out and possibly mapped out manner in which to discuss it without triggering a negative response which will take days or longer to broach, if ever. Unless one is seeking such a situation in the first place...

anyway, just some thoughts, I know you do not mean to be little the issue in any manner, and only wish to address things as a whole, but with certain things only being faced on a singular level, one must pcik the places they put their feets if they really care to end up with a positive outcome with the intended interaction...

I know, blah blah blah....

ok I'll shuddup...

I really do need to just quit posting in here...

Touche`

sorry IP+, #1069 wasn't meant 4 u but for kona0197.

Thanks. Now leave me alone.

who da heck be dis kona?

Go to your local bicycle shop. You'll find me there. I have 2 wheels.

IS good bike too
though I see a lot of Trek's

Trek is a waste of money. buy me. I have disc brakes.

And I can type. And read.

@shu .. no reason to apologise or anything... no pffense on this end

something that doesn't happen very easy at all with/for me...

I was just pointing outsome thoughts on the emotional cogntive state revolving around 9/11 is all, and did not mean any offense with it either.

Slow to anger long to let go and at time hard to apease, anger, fear, rage, hate, seems very American historically and also on a family level.

For instance, my older brother used to tell/explain to his friends and such who were bigger and older than me, if he does or says something and needs to be smacked for it, tell me and I will do it, if you do it I *will* break you...

I was not up to anyone else to lay a hand on me but him, no one had that right and even if I was totally wrong, if they laid a hand upon me I would still end up slapped silly, but they would pay for taking upon themselves a right that was not theirs. Odd, I know, but he did not allow anyone to touch me outside the house where he *could* control it, not until he was 16 could he make a difference at home until he was kicked out of the house...

But is it the same pretty much for older brothers and sisters on a level, no one touches the kid sister or brother.

Cowboy maybe that fits my family in some respects, we never did depend on the law to make things right. You did/do not do wrong by us or we will make it right if only in our own minds... Personal respect is earned, public respect is given freely, but if crossed there is a price to pay. Maybe that is whats wrong with our societys youth today and the ignrant acts they perpetuate. "I can do what I like when I like and if you touch me you'll go to jail" well, every now and then they run into someone who doesn't care about jail and then they learn a lesson about human nature, one that might give them pause the next time around they have a comment or decide something will be funny or fun at others expense?

anyway...

Something I do find rather odd is selective memory and specific use of history to build upon ones opinions. WWI and WWII the USA did play a key part in freeing France, but further back in history France also had a large part in freeing the USA...

Now here it is 100's of years later and the people the USA fought a war with for it's freedom is our best friends while the ones who helped us gain that same freedom are now seens as below us... odd?

I know it is more dynamic than that, but seems to be presented so many times as "We are the reason France was freed from the NAZI" which is partially true, yes, we did play a major part in that..

But isn't that a bit of a selective and subjective use of history for personal needs?

mm, ok, getting all disconjoined here... so I'll stop... rambling is pointless... besides that is what my journels are for