UI and comprehension issues; AI, black market ramble, patents, claims

Build 12745

Just played tutorials and "optional" missions, so this is just a first impression.
Before I start nitpicking, it's an interesting game with a lot of potential.
If problems are partly due to localisation I'll switch language.

Completely missed that caught attacks can be reused (unintuitive?), communicate better in tutorial.

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As I understand it, commodities need cash. Credit is just used for indispensable HQ life support, energy and transporter fuel. But UI doesn't show cash needs for auto-supply!
There are 2 unexpected consequences:
#1 is to lose cash when I'm saving up. Remedy: I can't "trade" but must dump my wares fast and then spend the money immediately. Feels stupid.
#2 is buildings stay unsupplied even though auto-supply is on, but I don't see why, neither in the building nor in the goods/money area.

Some suggestions:
try color coding different expenses at wares (red and yellow maybe); or highlight shortfalls there, with more detail in tooltip.
(Add cash precondition to auto-supply tooltip)
display the cash consumption for commodities at the cash UI (tooltip if need be)
maybe even allow using credit for commodities above a certain credit rating.

The last point would need some testing about consequences. Would add use to "cooking the books"; tradeoff between defering investment in cheap raw mats for faster growth vs risking the close deposit claim.

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AI won auction for a 3* resource claim, but never built on it.
some company AIs seem to choose one prefered target and then stick to it, no matter the target ranking. If its another NPC, easy game, no skill used. If this is the player, bad luck and a terrible game experience. When you're behind anyway, waiting for resources to upgrade, these attacks can completely shut you down for minutes.

Black market ramble:
The instand hit, blow-trading interaction reminds me of "The guild 1600", a terrible, now discontinued browser "trading" game. Looks like an easy way to add PvP action, but is actually turning off many of your core audience.

In an RTS with troops there are usually several mechanisms to increase defensive capability. Time needed to scout and approach the enemy.
Attacker troops at departure must be able to handle the enemy (and defense structures) at arrival.
Here, depending on Black Market options, defensive depth is missing. More money = cheap, instant attacks vastly increasing the gap.
If I know the mechanics I can reduce damage by building strategy, but that's it. That's no fun for a strategy game.

Missions 4+5 have 4 attacks and 1 defense: indefensible magnetic storm, indefensible slowdown, and 2/3 defensible attacks. Fatally, defense is auctioned by the same simple mechanic as attacks, via ALL players. As soon as the market opens, some defenses are bought, pushing up prices. A cought attack may trigger more than one defense, so players restock. Soon the next attack will cost 4,5k while the protective thugs cost 30k. At this point it becomes impossible to defend anything when you're poor, especially not an important patent application.

Some suggestions:
Revisit the auction mechanics. Depending on number of attacks, increase defense cost slower or calculate defensive cost raises per player.
Revisit NPC AI's target selection. Is there a strategic reason to single out one opponent?
Give BM actions an incubation time and warn the target (nothing like the good old "nuclear launch detected" from starcraft...).
There is surely more interesting stuff that can be done with the feature, and add depth to the interaction.

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Patents currently are like the initial civ's wonders of the world. Someone else finished it first when your final seconds tic? bad luck... and bad design.

Civ later announced who started building what, if I remember correctly. You could do that as well. Also it's a patent, so why not allow the other players to license it? Could be the same application cost, just that the owner then gets $$ for the use.

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Claims are static in higher difficulty levels, why? Especially for scientists it is a terrible restriction when you want to adjust your company later on. Option might be to bill for returning it, increasing cost with count of returns.

Also fighting for special claims might be interesting. If a claim is not built on for some time (e.g. because it was just reserved, auctioned or the building destroyed) other companies might find them appealing.

12,715 views 8 replies
Reply #1 Top


Civ later announced who started building what, if I remember correctly. You could do that as well. Also it's a patent, so why not allow the other players to license it? Could be the same application cost, just that the owner then gets $$ for the use.
End of quote

 

THIS! I love this game, but there is just some real lack of information. There should be some pop-ups in the top right when player...

・START and FINISH researching patents

・START AND FINISH building an Offworld Market

・Has 50% 75% 100% of the money to buy you out

・etc?

Reply #2 Top

There is notifcation of when patents and offworlds are completed.  If you want to know when these start use a spy (if available)

When you are vunerable to a buyout there is a yellow exclamation mark, that turns red when a player has 100% on you.

 

Reply #3 Top

Follow up on balance of Black Market attacks.

Suggestion: link duration of attacks to HQ level of target.

Basically the number of claims determines how much you can earn. The production bonus on neighbouring buildings means that area effects usually hit a whole section of production, effectively killing your income or even sending you in debt. An early mutiny on the power station can have similar effects.

Currently this effect lasts 2 whole minutes (120s). Worst cast, during this time the target doesn't grow at all while his opponents more than double their output. Depending on map, long term consequences may also be losing access to favourabe deposits, further crippling the position. Even worse, after this time the next attack can hit the target right away - who is still broke.

The problem is that the effect is disproportionally devastating at match start. Electric arcing or EMP usually gets less effective against a sizeable and compartmentalised position. Observe BM prices for these, at the end they are usually relatively low in AI games.
Pirates are more difficult, as they can hit multiple targets. If you don't want to use separate durations, maybe the cargo loss could be linked to HQ level.

If players can be effectively griefed, some people will grief. You don't want this.

Reply #4 Top

This is not your regular RTS with troops, so deal with it. I see this more as board game tbh. And the blackmarket is a great feature, especially when you play with friends and you argue between eachother who attacked your base. It seems like you don't know how to fully use the blackmarket at your advange yet and are complaining about it so it changes to your liking.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting DeathTacticus, reply 4

...so deal with it. ...
And the blackmarket is a great feature, especially when you play with friends...

It seems like you don't know how to fully use the blackmarket at your advange yet and are complaining about it so it changes to your liking.

End of DeathTacticus's quote

There's a huge difference between playing with friends and playing random opponents via matchmaking. Random players simply drop out when they project they have a bad start; this makes for a terrible experience even for the "winner". Overall it destroys the game.

I know only one game where being helpless for minutes makes sense from a design perspective - Left4Dead.

Btw: Please use arguments to make your point, not your opinion about my skill or lack thereof.

Reply #6 Top

Well you made a lot of points, Im not going to address all of them, but lets see..

 


Build 12745



As I understand it, commodities need cash. Credit is just used for indispensable HQ life support, energy and transporter fuel. But UI doesn't show cash needs for auto-supply!
There are 2 unexpected consequences:
#1 is to lose cash when I'm saving up. Remedy: I can't "trade" but must dump my wares fast and then spend the money immediately. Feels stupid.
#2 is buildings stay unsupplied even though auto-supply is on, but I don't see why, neither in the building nor in the goods/money area.


Black market ramble:
The instand hit, blow-trading interaction reminds me of "The guild 1600", a terrible, now discontinued browser "trading" game. Looks like an easy way to add PvP action, but is actually turning off many of your core audience.


Patents currently are like the initial civ's wonders of the world. Someone else finished it first when your final seconds tic? bad luck... and bad design.

Civ later announced who started building what, if I remember correctly. You could do that as well. Also it's a patent, so why not allow the other players to license it? Could be the same application cost, just that the owner then gets $$ for the use.


Claims are static in higher difficulty levels, why? Especially for scientists it is a terrible restriction when you want to adjust your company later on. Option might be to bill for returning it, increasing cost with count of returns.

End of quote

So lets see, about the cash, auto supply for buildings takes from your available cash, if you have no cash your buildings wont supply and wont run, sounds like what happened to you!  I dont understand why you think you have to "dump your wares then spend the money immediately".  You dont have to sell everything you own, it can be very good to have a stockpile of certain resources at certain times.  I get the impression that you probably had a very unprofitable building running at one time, and it was eating all of your cash to auto supply itself, which is why you think you have to immediately spend all your cash or it will just "disappear".

 

Black Market can definately be brutal, feels real bad man sometimes, but then again thats why its so effective.  Good BM use wins games, I think its fine as it is (maaaaybe a little too good in 1v1 but thats just my personal bias).

 

Claims being static is good, it forces the player to think harder about where to put them, and what use to make of them as the game progresses.  If I could just take a water claim when water is expensive, then return the claim later when the price has crashed, it would break the game.

 

As someone else mentioned you DO get a notification when techs are researched, as well as Offworlds being built.  If you want to see them before they are fully built, pay attention to the game, look at other players bases and get gud mate.  Spies are good and can be bought without burning your BM cooldown, and if someone beats you to a tech you get the chemicals back that you spent on it, way better than the little gold you get in Civ 5.

Reply #7 Top

Good points. Well, it was a first impression, frustrating problems I experienced as a new player.

Burning Cash: maybe unprofitable buildings, but also (1) production not on autosale, not part of tutorial, and (2) too much raw material needed I didn't produce. Autosale fixes the problem most of the time (unless you save for a building/ an upgrade), so an experienced player doesn't see the problem.
Anyway the UI doesn't tell the player he needs cash to buy stockpile, and how much per sec. So my diminishing cash was a riddle to me.

BM: difficult subject and tricky balancing, agree. A complete shutdown for 4 minutes (3 attacks by 2 AIs) hit me in one of the optional scenarios (or even tutorial, don't remember. Post says tutorial). Somewhat harsh, and easy to do to a less experienced player in PvP, hence the griefing misgivings. Maybe it's not worse than being rushed in a RTS, but it feels completely overpowered for the effort needed. This period (120s) in the ramp up phase is an eternity. Therefor the suggestion to link effect duration also to target HQ level.
Anyway, "trading game" is somewhat misleading for cutthroat competition ;), and there is always the option for the more peaceful audience to switch off BM attacks.

Claims becoming static was a mayor game changer introduced with raising difficulty. I can live with it now. Still a return option would be nice, especially when there is not a glut of unbound BM and auction claims. Maybe a BM action or simply increasing fees.

Techs - I just get a notification when research is finished, bit late? I'd prefer a marker in the patent building, application already pending or sth. Feels less random, you still need the building and with several PBs in game you don't know who does it.
Well, in some games there's spies (didn't see any yet) and I can do something. In others I can't (aside from watching chem prices and randomly bombing), and it is just frustrating. Low point was the auction of a tech I had almost finished researching... plain sucks.
For the match I lose time and the energy cost. On the other hand it is not civ, I lose 30 min instead of 2 days play time. A tech is a change of rules; in some games it's nice to have and in others it is just as crucial as control of a scarce resource. The question is if patents must stay exclusive. In campaigns and by auctions several players use the same techs.