Tier 1 Units

underpowered

Hello.

( EDIT: speaking about: brute, archer, martyr, reaper    \\ IMO capacitor, sky cleaner, medic, hermes are ok)

In my opinion, at present T1 units are under-powered and rather uninteresting. The cannon fodder types are simply too weak both in damage and health. The archer/reaper have some situational uses but it is a big gambit - if the opponent sees a mass of T1 there is an obvious and safe way to defeat with minimal losses. It feels like T1 units are lacking and do not have a role or something they are exceptionally good at. This makes them only a stepping stone for the first <5 minutes and rather fast transition into T2 is dominant strategy.

Possible improvement: 
-Add movement speed - the obvious one. Many other games give weaker units more movement speed assigning them allowing harassing role later in the game.

Fellow forum members - if you agree with the thesis - give other suggestions please.

45,871 views 13 replies
Reply #1 Top

A buff to movement speed would be welcome tbh. But, the PHC T1 units are actually good. For example the Hermes and that healer. I find them a key part of any army composition. The Substrate have that T1 unit which gives back energy which is a must have. 

Reply #2 Top

In the beta, tier 1 units gave buffs to the army group they belonged to - speed, health, etc. I'd love to see this return. Make the buffs small but meaningful still - this helps to keep tier 1 units relevant still past the first 5 minutes other than being cannon fodder for T2s. It also makes for some creative army composition choices. Removing it removed some depth and choice from the game imo. 

Reply #3 Top

I personally still feel that Brutes and Martyrs are situationally useful. Against units like Artemis they're pretty bad (AOE just kills them very fast) but against units like Nemesis and Eradicator (Slow, powerful hits) they're really great. If you pair a brute squad with a cruiser, the Nemesis/Eradicator is likely (Not sure if always, probably not) to hit them instead of your "squishy" cruiser.

 

It does feel a lot like rock/paper/scissors though when you try to put T1 units against T2. Great against some, terrible against others (Artemis and Zeus are just so incredibly good against T1 for example)

Reply #4 Top

Quoting 4gent0range, reply 3

I personally still feel that Brutes and Martyrs are situationally useful. Against units like Artemis they're pretty bad (AOE just kills them very fast) but against units like Nemesis and Eradicator (Slow, powerful hits) they're really great. If you pair a brute squad with a cruiser, the Nemesis/Eradicator is likely (Not sure if always, probably not) to hit them instead of your "squishy" cruiser.

 

It does feel a lot like rock/paper/scissors though when you try to put T1 units against T2. Great against some, terrible against others (Artemis and Zeus are just so incredibly good against T1 for example)
End of 4gent0range's quote

True, vs. Nemesis, Athena, Mauler, tier 1 units are very cost effective. All it takes is one Zeus or Avenger or Artemis for them to be removed from the equation - but if someone is spamming Maulers or Athenas, they are definitely still useful.

Reply #5 Top

For me T1 is too weak but I would not enhance the speed. Maybe a unit like the hermes could help SUB in the way Danei wanna like it to have.

I would give T1 maybe more dmg hp, that units like the zeus would be usefull to build. Could we plz have a mechanic like:

T1 > nemesis -> athena -> zeus > T1 (circle is closed) the nemesis and T1 feeling really too bad for being a part in that.

One way to bringe more dmg from T1 to T2 would be a nerf of T2 dmg that the cruiser would not kill each other nearly instant that T1 could deliver more dmg over time by being more significant.

Reply #6 Top

I agree with OP and DasUnding. T1 PHC at least got nerfed too hard, less familiar with Sub situation.

Reply #7 Top

There's actually very little gains with increased move speed if you can't micro them. The only exception is Hermes, which actually listens to you. T1 (or any army in general) is easily stopped just by sending a force to intercept, making the AI engage in combat, while trying painfully to move away, turning, firing, blah blah (meanwhile you get frustrated spamming move command them to a different location you wanted).

Increased move speed also doesn't help you dodge a lot of fire power in the game (except for Artemis and Hades bombs I guess). It could be really nice if Hermes can dodge Avenger stream weapon by micro-ing (people are gonna jump at me for making the game micro-intensive here).

I actually think of a very different solution here. I actually want to reduces the number of cruisers on the field. I want cruisers to be more expensive and even more build time. They can also gains additional firepower but basically, they should be to T1 like dreadnoughts are to them. You sacrifice a lot of resources and time to get them (and being vulnerable meanwhile) but if you manage to survive, you gain a unit that can swing the tide of a losing combat. Basically, cruisers should also be an investment, just like dreadnoughts are, although less extreme. So people can cling to mass T1 to continuously (and visibly) increase their army power, while other players who manage to invest and survive will get better, stronger units.

I'm looking at something like Mauler can cost a whopping 800-1000 metal and alot more radio, say 200-300, last extremely long on the field but might take 90 seconds to build. Also, I want to reduce the "specialist weapon" of "effective vs X" units. I would like to see Maulers and Athena kill each other quickly, but not in less than 1-2 seconds, maybe they can beam each other continuously for 10-20 seconds and then die, while other units takes forever to kill them. Or Avenger severely damage T1 unit with its stream weapon, but not to the point of oneshotting (multiple Avengers would of course still rapes the shit out of T1, which is correct I'd say, so is Zeus). Or, another similar approach is that cruisers should cost a lot more radioactive (a LOT more, 100 to 200 to even 300), thus making surplus metal go into defenses and T1.

 

Basically, I want to have this feeling: Oh god, that thing is called Mauler, it looks bigger than the frigates around it. There's also only 1-2 of it among massive amount of frigates, it must be very strong :O. Then, later, more extreme: my fucking god, what is that thing (say Retributor), it looks even bigger than the Mauler! And it swims in an ocean of Maulers! (ok maybe i don't want to see an ocean of Maulers, but you get the point).

Reply #8 Top

Quoting LoveIsAll, reply 7

There's actually very little gains with increased move speed if you can't micro them. 
End of LoveIsAll's quote

That could be good lead. If the slowdown penalty was remove from them, they could hit and run on undefended nodes. 

Reply #9 Top

Retreating is a wider problem. 

There seems to be a problem with command priorities - user given commands are overided by embeded behaviour. The same issue/feature that makes dominator/fury target the wrong enemy also prevents an army from retreating promptly at given command because a unit really wants to attack another unit - e.g. marauder run melee and vaporize a zeus holding the whole meta unit due to formation constraints.

Reply #10 Top

Anyway retreating as an army doesn't work. Armies are still a work in progress. T1 units should face the ennemy and freed the rest of the army of the slowdown penalty but that's another thread. To be back to the OP a way T1 could be useful is to introduce a modulation in the slowdown penalty. In an army, with the right numbers, they could discharge the cruisers of the slowdown. Outside of an army they could have a very reduced penalty.

Reply #11 Top

I'd be up for them being much faster, tbh I wish all units were a little faster, this game doesn't have the fluidity that I'm used to >.< often I'm finding time to bounce around the map and zoom in and out of hover drones.... xD

Reply #12 Top

Believe me u have a lot more to do if the maps are bigger.

Reply #13 Top

Oh I know, but then on large maps t1 units don't matter that much either. 

Each race has a way of smushing t1 units..

Larger maps should be a win for phc, I can't see how a good sub would be a good phc with larger maps.

But in a 1v1 the maps aren't big enough for that many things to be going on.