Dreads won't target or shoot! » Forum Post by Ashpire

What dreads did you have in your group? A mix or same dreadnought type? Dreadnoughts have different roles, so they will act accordingly to a rule set when deciding what to attack. FYI when you click to attack on a unit that is part of an army you are not actually selecting that unit for attack, you are selecting the whole army to be attacked. The unit behaviours then take over and choose what to kill based on a priority list.

I would prefer the option to target a specific target in the army, and it has been discussed previously on Discord. I believe it is something that is added to the list of fixes, though it is not considered too much of a priority.

The next patch is due this month: targeting bugfixes. The last patch made quality of life changes, so unless this is classified as a bug high up on that list, it's unlikely to be changed this year.

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I had a group of three Hyperions and a Prometheus against a single Overmind. The latter was probably 50% stronger than my units individually, but it killed them all. I couldn't get more than one dread at a time to target it. All small ships were gone, so the "target army" effect you described wouldn't explain it.

And the Overmind could back up while firing. The PHC never do this (another defect)... This pulled out my only active dread while the others lagged back. I couldn't force those to engage (and shouldn't have to!). Again, no other units behave like this.

Overall, the PHC dreadnoughts need some rework. If I tell several of them to attack a target they should do it. Often, one will listen while the others shirk, pretend to be busy elsewhere, or just stop and admire the show. It's ridiculous.

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I think I speak for many others when I say that usually people will not comment on what does not effect them. I hope you don't think that your comments/bug threads are being ignored. I read them all, but if I have nothing meaningful to add, then I don't reply. The Devs from this game are actually really cool and totally invested in making this game a success. I am sure they are looking at your issues that you post here.

The way I see it is that they have a limited time so they would rather be working on/tweaking the game than to take up their time posting on the forums.

This particular issue with dreads I have not experienced in game, but he Army AI is notoriously bad when it comes to positioning and range setup. It is something they know about and are working on tweaking.

You should join the Discord channel. People are more active there, and there is a dedicated section for bug reports. You can post screenshots and videos there, also.

Cheers!

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While it's never been so disastrous I have seen similar behavior and I think I understand what's going on. Units seem to have a preferred engagement range and will move to try to keep the enemy at that range. That's why the Overmind is moving back--it's preferred range is longer. The PHC dreadnaughts (other than the artillery one) seem to prefer to be at about their maximum weapon range.

One dreadnought is in range and firing, the others are not. The others are trying to maneuver so as to engage the target but never succeed because the target is retreating and groups of dreadnoughts do not maneuver well.

My solution to the specific scenario is to order my dreadnoughts to a point well behind the target--the order might have to be repeated. Since the leader is closing the others have a space to move into and follow, doing much better at getting them all in range.

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Quoting Ashpire,

reply 2

I had a group of three Hyperions and a Prometheus against a single Overmind. The latter was probably 50% stronger than my units individually, but it killed them all. I couldn't get more than one dread at a time to target it. All small ships were gone, so the "target army" effect you described wouldn't explain it.

I guess the active dreadnought was your Prometheus? That is a dedicated anti-dreadnought unit so it makes sense that it would actively engage other dreadnoughts. The Hyperions are area of effect units, better on taking on small groups of units but still have a primary cannon to do damage against single targets. With the Overminds army dead that may explain why they held back. I'd still expect them to engage the Overmind though. As Loren mentioned there are engagement ranges, so perhaps that's why they held back. That's also why the Overmind pulled back, the AI can pull off these little tricks where we as players cannot

As Xaosinc said the Dev's are active and listening as the last few patches have proved. They also remind us from time to time. They don't reply to every issue raised as they'd spend more time responding than they would fixing and improving. Besides, they have a helpful and friendly community to do that

Also bugs are but on a priority list. GGTheMachine did explain these somewhere recently but I'm coming up short as to where. Basically they are ranked from game cannot be played (needs immediate attention) and goes down the list where the game is playable but it does affect gameplay in someway depending on it's impact. There are probably hundreds of bugs still around, even those the community are unaware of. Patches also have a habit of introducing new bugs, even previously fixed ones. This months patch will focus on bug fixing, so perhaps it could resolve any issue with dreadnought engagement ranges.

In the meantime, as a work around, try instructing your dreadnoughts to move to a location just behind the enemy dread in relation to your dread position. That way they should engage the dreadnought (or any other enemy) because they want to get to the designated location and the enemy dread is in the way.

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Thanks for the replies! I'll certainly try the target-beyond workaround.

The Hyperion and Prometheus seem too smart for their own good. But not smart enough to back up while firing (I thought that was added... maybe only to Cronus?). And and not smart enough to aim first at Substrate "carving" turrets in a compound.

In any case, if the player directs them to attack a specific unit, they should simply do that. Chase it down and blast it. It's hard enough to beat the AI without these frustrating disconnects.

BTW I see some similar problems with the PHC juggernaut, though its arty mitigates the effect. One enemy jug can kill several of mine since they won't fan out and gang up on it.

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Quoting centaurianmudpig,

reply 5

As Loren mentioned there are engagement ranges, so perhaps that's why they held back. That's also why the Overmind pulled back, the AI can pull off these little tricks where we as players cannot

No--I don't think the other dreads were holding back. Rather, I think they were failing to close. Dread #1 is in range, it sits there and fires. Dreads #2..#4 try to head towards the Overmind but the direct path takes them through #1, they can't go there. They have to move off to the side to go around.

Meanwhile, the Overmind moves back. Dread #1 responds by moving forward. Now #2..#4 see a space to move into, they head back towards it. Dread #1 is in range, it stops. Now the path is blocked, the others must turn aside again.

The result is the other dreads are tracing a zig-zag path which slows them down a lot--they are never able to close to engagement range.

I have yet to see a game of this sort where you don't get severe traffic jam problems in some cases. The size of dreads makes this problem much worse. The problem here is that figuring out how to get all the units through a space is a very complex programming challenge, yet it must run quickly--prohibiting solutions which attempt to solve it globally. Furthermore, the nature of the engagement means that the solution keeps changing.

While it would look ugly I think the game would behave better if the footprint of a dread was reduced. Other than that the only thing I can think of is to give units a considerable preference for not being in the shadow of anything with a weapons range equal or greater than theirs. If the terrain permits spreading out, do so. This generally happens with lesser units in armies but doesn't seem to work for dreads.

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If the terrain permits spreading out, do so. This generally happens with lesser units in armies but doesn't seem to work for dreads

Indeed it doesn't work with dreads. I had almost written in my previous post that they should simply behave like the brutes, which will fan out to both sides around their target. The fact that dreads are larger shouldn't matter in open terrain.

LorenPechtel's analysis comes close to what I'm seeing when an Overmind retreats, except that the trailing dreads will sometimes just give up and turn away, though I am constantly directing them to the enemy. Superficially it seems that they aren't listening at all. Though I see now that there are many rules at work... But the little guys do a lot better, and follow even a retreating enemy pretty well.

Idea - maybe the backup speed of the Overmind etc could be reduced, so that a pack of Hyperions can stay with it. That's reasonable.

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Path finding is also something that need addressing for all ground units. They can take long detours, when they are able to go as the crow flies.

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Aah I see. This problems seems to relate to the fact that units turn idiotically. It has been brought up in other threads that units should take the quickest, most direct path to get where they are commanded to go. Instead they will attempt to turn around like an old Cadillac, causing a massive slowdown. It is even worse when units are in an army as they will turn like some military parade. i.e. in a line formation, which causes the outer units to often fall within range of being attacked. Also, getting an army out of range of an orbital attack is a nightmare.

It has been suggested that all units should be able to either reverse direction (back up) and/or to turn in place where they are rather than turn as a group (They all hover after all. Shouldn't they be able to do this?). With dreads, this issue is a lot more prevalent, as many dreads seem to only attack from the front, causing them to get confused on what to target if there are better eligible targets to the side. That is how frigates can kill dreads. They can surround it so it is dead before it has time to turn around to hit them all.

Also, keep in mind that the Substrate overmind acts quite differently than all the other dreads. It sends out drones and then tries to stay at max range of it's drones. It doesn't have to directly attack so it doesn't have to turn as much.

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Quoting Xaosinc,

reply 10

It is even worse when units are in an army as they will turn like some military parade. i.e. in a line formation, which causes the outer units to often fall within range of being attacked. Also, getting an army out of range of an orbital attack is a nightmare.

The best solution is to disband the army, which gives the faster moving units a fighting chance of getting out of the orbital range.

Quoting Xaosinc,

reply 10

It has been suggested that all units should be able to either reverse direction (back up) and/or to turn in place where they are rather than turn as a group (They all hover after all. Shouldn't they be able to do this?).

I would not be surprised if path finding once again causes this problem, or they are buggy. I know someone has been able to use army formations to glitch units into otherwise unreachable areas .

Quoting Xaosinc,

reply 10

With dreads, this issue is a lot more prevalent, as many dreads seem to only attack from the front, causing them to get confused on what to target if there are better eligible targets to the side. That is how frigates can kill dreads. They can surround it so it is dead before it has time to turn around to hit them all.

I suppose flanking the enemy should give you an advantage (i.e. confuse the enemy) While the idea of the formation change sounded great and was positively received, as it turned out, it requires more than just moving a dread to the front. Any short range frigates and cruisers stay out of engagement, resulting in the dread taking on two roles as the tank and DPS, and dying first. Before the change the dread would usually be the last one standing. I think brutes/martyrs need more of a HP increase and perhaps weaken their DPS further to that they truly act more like tanks rather than glass paper weights and be allowed to act as the shields they are meant to be, moving in between the enemy and the army leader.

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Quoting centaurianmudpig,

reply 11

While the idea of the formation change sounded great and was positively received, as it turned out, it requires more than just moving a dread to the front.

Regarding formations: I had requested that medics would not form up in front of dreads, where they were simply annihilated. Having the small fighting units in front is a good idea and in fact that's what the Substrate does.

Thanks for the attention to this dreadnought behavior issue. These are such important units that their programming should be treated as a priority concern. Worst is when they cannot be made to fire at a crucial target.

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