Why liberals keep losing...

Underestimating the support for conservative ideals is costing the liberals influence

from JoeUser Forums

When I ask, "Why do liberals keep losing?" what I specifically mean is those who believe in American liberal ideals (which to a European means something different) are finding their political fortunes ebbing and their influence on the United States weakening.

And it boils down to this: the left wing mainstream media and liberal politicians mistakenly think that their beliefs are held by the majority of Americans.  They're not. They should know this because the polls on these issues are regularly posted by them!

Some of my positions are liberal too and it is easy to believe that those who disagree with you are stupid or evil or ignorant or whatever.  It's amazing how often conservatives get called "Fascists" or "Nazis" by the left. Do they really think they're doing their cause any good by having such a knee-jerk reaction to other beliefs? Liberals have it harder because they proclaim to be open to new ideas and most of all, tolerant. But liberals are increasingly seen as not tolerant. What used to be a competition of ideas has become political correctness.

Here are some bullet items. See how you react to them. These aren't necessarily how I believe but these are conservative views held by a large percentage of the population.

1) All Americans, even children, have a right to own a firearm. That means a hand gun. It means a semi-automatic weapon. It means a rifle or a shot gun. The reason for owning this is not just for hunting. Not just for protection. But to ensure that if necessary that the people could overthrow the government.

What is your reaction to that statement? Polls have shown that most Americans believe this or a significant portion of this. Read the debates by the founding fathers with regards to the second amendment (including writings from Thomas Jefferson) and it's pretty clear that the right to bear arms was put into the constitution for, amongst other reasons, to keep the government "honest".  As Jefferson himself said, "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing."

2) Abortion should be illegal in all but the rarest of cases. It is not the fault of the unborn child if its parentage was accidental or inconvenient. In addition, its legality should not be determined by the supreme court but instead by state legislatures.

Again, while I am pro-choice myself, roughly half the population believes this.

3) The death penalty is necessary. In a land with so much freedom responsibility for ones action must go hand in hand. Those who take the life of another, having exhausted their appeals, should be put to death.

Most Americans believe that the death penalty should be legal. They have lots of reasons for this but most of it simply boils down to if you kill someone, you should forfeit your life.

4) By and large, the poor of the United States are poor because they are either lazy, stupid, or mentally imbalanced or all three. It is not the job of the government to take care of these people. That is the job of charities.

Once again, a large percentage (this one I don't know the polling data off hand but I know it's a pretty large chunk) of the population feels this way. It is not a matter of being uncaring. It is a matter of who's job is it to take care of the poor? Not the government's. Let those who are truly compassionate give to charities.

I'll stick with these 4 since this should be enough to make the point. Liberals find these viewpoints to be inhumane, ignorant, selfish, and extreme.  That is certainly their right. But where their mistake comes is believing that only a tiny "Fringe" of "right-wing extremists" believe these things. In fact, millions of Americans believe these things. Millions of decent, educated, thoughtful Americans believe these things. Thinking that only a tiny number of people believe in these things causes liberals to underestimate them.

The results have been obvious -- losses in elections, losses in media influence (watch Fox News sometime, and I mean actually watch it, if you find it "right wing" to any significant degree then I suggest you look in the mirror, you're probably significantly left wing). As long as liberals continue to dismiss conservatives and their values as "fringe" and label them as "Nazis" and "Fascists", they will continue to lose ground. Alienating large tracks of the American population unnecessarily is foolish.  Which is exactly what we've been seeing for the past few years.

 

13,517 views 23 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
"Once again, a large percentage (this one I don't know the polling data off hand but I know it's a pretty large chunk) of the population feels this way."

Could you post the polling data for the other issues? And more importantly, the specific questions that were asked?
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Google is your friend. The other ones have had countless polls on them. Take your pick.
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
To make sure it's easy, I did one on the death penalty:

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=101

64% to 25% in FAVOR of the death penalty. Which is down from how it used to be. The others are probably similarly easy to find.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I wanted to know what polls *you* were using so my response to your post would be more accurate. But OK, I will do it myself. Here are my results...

DEATH PENALTY

"Nearly Three Out of Four Pennsylvanians Support a Suspension of the Death Penalty Until Its Fairness Can Be Studied"

"62% of North Carolinians Support Death Penalty Moratorium"

"According to a recent Field Poll, Californians favor stopping state executions by nearly 4 to 1. "

"55% of New Hampshire residents support abolition of the state's death penalty"

ABORTION

"On the issue of abortion, would you say you are more pro-life or more pro-choice?" Ans. "44% pro-life, 44% pro-choice"

"The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1973 that a woman can have an abortion if she wants one at any time during the first three months of pregnancy. Do you favor or oppose that ruling?" Ans. "54% favor, 44% against."


Does this make my point?
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
It is interesting that you choose four issues that really do not address major problems such as social security, war of choice, infrastructure, civil rights, decent living wages.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
EZP: I chose 4 common topics. Feel free to write your own.

ABe: What point are you trying to make? Besides cherry picking state polls, you only demonstrated that roughly half the poulation has conservative values. Way to go. Which was my point.

Unless you've been living in a cave (or in fairness, don't live in the United States) you would know tha tmost Americans favor the death penalty. If you disagree with that, then well you should move on. I'm sure there's a flat earth society looking for a new member. ;)
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Draginol, I asked for your sources so I could make an informed reply to your post. You gave me a flippant response about using a search engine. So I used the search engine and specifically picked polls that contradicted your posistion. My point? If I dont' know your sources, how do I know you aren't "cherry picking" to get the results you want? Why is that hard for you to understand?

*WARNING* Gross Draginol-like genralization coming up!

Why is it that republicans always get in such a tissy when you ask the to cite their sources? Do they just expect you to take everything on blind faith?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I agree with parts of #1, but that's about it. and most americans may believe the death penalty is necessary, but we're close to alone in the world on that issue.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
You'll find that most people get "tissy" when asked to cite sources on things that are pretty well known statistical facts. And what's worse your polls don't even contradict mine. Do you even read what you post? Pro-life/pro-choice split evenly. You listed zero national polls on the death penalty. I provided a national poll from a respectable website that is in line with what has been reported countless times on CNN, ABC, NBC, etc.

If we were having a debate on diets of early man, would you demand that I cite evidence to prove evolution before engaging in what the topic is primarily about? Or worse, would you come in and start showing links to creationist sites? .

If you wanted to be at least slightly constructive you could just say "Hey, I don't believe you. I believe that only a small percentage of Americans hold those views." Which way is it? Either you agree with the assumptiosn I make or you think few people hold them. If it's the former, then move on to the next issue. If you think it's the latter than you prove my point - people on the left believe that conservative values are held by only a small percentage of people which leads to them dismissing those values which in turn costs them in elections and media influence.

On the other hand, if you accept the premise, then the next issue I am arguing (and is debateable) is that I believe that liberals simply believe conservative values are uncivilized.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Of course a democracy should reflect the will of the people. But the wonderfull thing of politics is that it can bring progression as well. For an example: We now view slavery as something disgusting. I can still become sick when I remember the images of it that I saw at school. Probably because I was brought up that way. I assume the same goes for you. But there was a time when people thought differently about it. We Dutch loved it and built specialized ships to transport them. It was good for our trade. Slavery was accepted or viewed as a fact of life. Slavery existed for a long time. Now let's assume that politicians in those days decided on human grounds that slavery should be prohibited eventhough the majority of the people didn't care and it was bad for bussiness. Wouldn't those politicians have become heroes in our history books? Or to put it differently: If progression didn't exist, wouldn't we still be living in the dark ages?
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
scratch:

Exactly. The issue isn't whether one agrees with those issues or not. My own views are not purely conservative by a long shot. The point is that whether I or you (or even Abe) agrees with these issues or not, they are held by a substantial percentage of the American public. The American VOTING public (whether literlaly or in terms of viewership).

Pretending that they don't exist merely opens the door for a politician or news network to take those disaffected voters/viewers. Which is why liberals keep losing.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think if you polled the United States on the issue of slavery even back at its founding the majority of Americans would have agreed it wasn't a good thing.

But you highlight a good point in particular -- liberals see conservative views much like views on slavery. That they, the high minded, more sophisticated, more enlightened left must help guide their less sophisticated, gun toting, anti-abortion red neck conservatives into the light and educate them as to how to be civilized.

And conservatives resent that. Because they believe their views aren't uncivilized. Restricting freedoms and wanting to protect unborn children, says the conservative, certainly don't seem uncivilized. And living in such a free society comes with serious responsibilities which is backed by a death penalty that while rarely actually used, serves as a reminder that there is an ultimate punishment for those who abuse their freedoms by robbing others of their ultimate freedom (their life).

But more to the point, liberals believe their views are "progressive". They are on the march of progress. To which conservatives can point out that communism was the religion of the left for many years too and we all know how that ends.

True progress, in my opinon, is a melding of ethics and a realistic understanding of human nature.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I agree with your "True progress, in my opinon, is a melding of ethics and a realistic understanding of human nature."

But isn't that a liberal point of view? It would allow you to make a progressive decission.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Not necessarily. Each side's idealogues believe they have a lock on both.

Communisn failed because it didn't take into account human nature.

When I use the term liberal, I mean it in the sense of contemporary American liberal. Where things like "social justice" are code words for blaming all things on white males and more particularly wealthy white males.

Personally, probably because I grew up poor, I don't have much sympathy for poor people. I was surrounded by them, being one of them, and in almost every case (okay every case) they were poor because they were lazy or stupid or both. I don't consider it a matter of "justice" that these people be handed stuff. But they often were.

My wife has family members who receive welfare and are, by her testimony and that of others in her family, immensely lazy people with no drive. But liberals would provide them with even more free stuff in the name of "social justice".

I do not believe that the government rules us. I see the government leading us but we control the government. But liberals tend to see the government as teh solution to many of life's problems. Conservatives tend to see government as a necessary evil. An instrument to implement things that we cannot, as individuals, take care of that must be taken care of (roads, defense being the main two things).

Conservatives tend to see the government as merely this thing we set up to take care of a few things. So when people start suggesting that it should have power over us (such as telling us what we can and can't own in our homes) conservatives have a problem. Note that I use the term conservatives and not Republicans. Republicans are not purely conservative anymore than Democrats are purely liberal.

Conservatives want to see the laws made and enforced as locally as possible. Liberals prefer to see laws made and enforced on a national level. I see nothing progressive in that.

In fact, I don't really see anything "progressive" about American liberalism. In some ways, such as political correctness laws and policies (seen particularly on campuses), American liberalism is regressive.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
I can understand your points for the first three. I might not agree with those views in whole but understand them and CAN see them being true as far as most American believing that. The last one is, and will probably be, more about mis-education and cultural beliefs than a reality.

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4) By and large, the poor of the United States are poor because they are either lazy, stupid, or mentally imbalanced or all three. It is not the job of the government to take care of these people. That is the job of charities.
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Lazy? Mentally challenged? Stupid? Is one to really believe that those who are poor are that way because they are just lazy? Working 2 jobs is lazy? Living in a community of poor to working class makes it easy to 'make it'? Getting a good job only depends on talent? Grades? Skill?

This has to do with culture not reality. Since the beginning, America has been the land of opportunity and it has been looked as, "if you do not make it, then your a looser" to put it bluntly.

This is why for decades people who lose their jobs, homes, whatever and become homeless are considered bums?

They might 'believe it' but it is certainly not true. That statement make it sound like poverty is fun or being poor is cool. Just get by and everything will be alright.



I would also add that it is my firm believe that in the economy (as well as crime and public health in general) in order to keep it healthy and going is to provide a service for those who need it. If we don't allow education for the poor we end up with allot of people without education and reflectively hurt the work force. If people live in poverty is makes it hard for them to become part of the economy We loose out on those who buy things and more importantly entrepreneurial spirit inspiration lowers; a CRITICAL part of the economy.


The economy is only as strong as the weakest link. The more 'poor weak fools' out there the worst off we all are. No socialism, CAPITALISM. This is why work fair works, why educational loans work, why housing works, training programs, and so on. Government shouldn't give hand outs, but help outs to become better, more influential parts of the economy. In other words teach the man to fish instead of giving him fish.

Charities are nice, but tend to want to stay in business... and tend to do just what you don't want government to do... give out. Government has no such compulsion to 'stay in business' of handing out. (although some workers might feel they NEED to make sure there are more people to help so the purposely don't help... that is another story).
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
yes the questions in polling is very important indeed.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I suppose one way to really find out what Americans really believe is for you to get 100% voter turnout at a Presidential Election, you guys should try it .
Maybe then you would really know what the sentiment of the population really was. I suppose we will never know will we, not that many countries have compulsory voting though. I always find the best way to express who you want as you government is by doing this. That way when people want to critise a particular party or President at least they can stand up and say I didn't vote for x, but I did vote for y. As for the fire arms issue, well you guys will keep hanging onto to this right , whilist kids are getting gunned down at school by their class mates, drive by shootings, home murders , of cours guns don't kill do they, noooo. I often admire you guys for having a bill of rights, however I feel some things should not be an automatic right , one being the right to arm bears, sorry that should read , the right to bear arms. It is interesting that in countries that do not have this right, you might also notice that gun deaths are much lower, much much much lower, guns do kill , why because they are there, simple equation, give a man a gun, make him mde enough, and he pulls the trigger. Yes there are other weapons, however none as efficent as the automatic gun. Death penality, well for a country so full of christians, you seem to forget a few golden rules of the good Lord, Thou shalt not kill, this applies to all acts of killing, not just the illegal acts.
As for the argument that it is a deterent, well I think the statistics speak for themselves. As for point four, well so much for the christians ethic that you guys love to say you hold so dear. Not a lot of love for thy neighbour, just the self. To even make this comment shows complete lack of compassion and understanding of just how wrong you are, many people who are in the socio economic bracket are ther for many reasons that have nothing to do with their own doing. You car about whether the ten commandments are able to be displayed in a court house, however you seem to care very little about their meaning, not to mention the fact that Jesus, spent most of his life helping the very people you malign. Being a christian mens following in the footsteps of Christ, not crapping on about some stupid symbol in a court house, I doubt he would give a rats arse about the whole affair, people seem to miss most of what this guy was about, remember the stonning, let the first of you who is without sin cast the first stone, sought of takes us back to the death penalty, dosen't it.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
joetheblow:

It doesn't matter WHY people are poor. What matters is what you do about it. Ever hear the saying "Give a man a fish, you have fed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you have fed him for the rest of his life?"

There's a woman who lives here in Livonia, a neighbor of someone who goes to my church. She's a single mother with a live in boyfriend, at least 4 kids, and she's on welfare. There's a Lexus parked in her driveway, but the house is falling apart, and it's affecting the sale of other houses on the street. She and the boyfriend aren't getting married because then she'd lose her welfare check. Livonia is a prosperous city. We have good schools. We're within 20-30 minutes of a lot of other prosperous cities, and there's the SMART bus system if you don't have another way to get to work. No one in Livonia is trapped in a bad situation. I don't know this woman except from what I've heard from my fellow parishoner, so I don't know what kind of skills she has, if any. But she could probably find some kind of job that would still let her get home before her kids get back from school, and she could definitely marry this guy, and leave the money that she is simply taking for people who need it more than she does. Even if the boyfriend wasn't in the picture, it wouldn't bother me if she had a job and just needed some extra help. It bothers me that she, and other people like her, seem to think that they have the right to just take the money that ultimately comes from hardworking people like me.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
it does matter why they are poor.

for some reason I guess, ppoeple see those on welfare and say they are getting away with murder.

I am not defening people who drive around in luxury cars who are on welfare. I am talking about people wo actually want to get off of it. I am talking about people ho need assistance for some reason.

I know of people who had children JUST to stay on welfare. I never condoned that. This is why I think the workfare system will work better. Plus the person gets the opertunity to gain skills or education.

Of which leads to your first statement of teaching a person how to fish.

Nevertheless, why is it that you will have one or 2 people who are on a program and abuse it and now everyone is like that?

Attrubition Theory.

Why are all poor people just lazy, stupid, or have a mental disability?
I find that very interesting... and possibly self defeating. I am sure many have gone through a rough time or rough years and work from pay check to pay check or was just poor.

Does that mean your stupid? Are you to believe that you are lazy?
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sadly there will always be a minority that abuse the system, that is accross the board, if we condem all becaus of the mistakes of a few then we are a very short sighted people, as in all cases in life some people will rort the system, this does not mean that the majority of people are bad, and not deserving of our help. Also with a bit of though we might find that those that have been poor long term have like many reached a point psychologocally that they have lost all hope, thus creating generations of unemployed
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Interesting and insightful. Check out my blog article posted 12-02-03 on the humanity/personhood of the Unborn entitled, "Liberty & Equlaity for All?"
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Interesting and insightful. Check out my blog article posted 12-02-03 on the humanity/personhood of the Unborn entitled, "Liberty & Equality for All?"