Some will hate us because of what we do. Some will love us because of what we do. Still others will hate us no matter what we do. Still others will love us no matter what we do. And still others will have no opinion of us one way or the other. It is the way of things I suppose. So the only solution is to do what's right.

No one ever said the United States never does anything wrong. Anyone that's studied Slavery knows better. I don't know of one American that thinks that. But it's amazing we are accused of that all the time.
[Message Edited]

Killa:



OK - with you so far...nice how you mentioned "Manifest Destiny" and the midwest in the same point.



Hmm. All 2 countries that share a land border with the USA (3, if you want to count Quebec separately from the rest of Canada, and they're still not sure if they do themselves). The USA last invaded Canada, I believe, during the War of 1812. Likewise, Mexico was at war with the US around the turn of the last century. In either case, hardly a cause for a constant apprehension.

The point is that currently, American businesses such as automobile manufacturers take advantage of NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement) to use labor in Mexico and Canada without having to bicker with American labor unions. We are also unlikely to declare war on either of them anytime soon. Canada and the USA share an open border. Sure, airline flights are scrutinized, but how about the roads? I've driven into Canada, with answers to about 5 basic questions and presenting a driver's license. No passport, no nothing. Our border with Mexico is guarded largely to keep down on illegal immigration, not for defensive purposes.

The major US problems with foreign policy are overseas, not at home. And those problems are because our political emphasis shifts every 4-8 years and we're seen as meddlers. Also because we are seen as the muscle of the UN, which is DESIGNED to meddle. And because our meddling can be passed off as forced democratic morality. These are valid criticisms, but have little to do with Canada and Mexico.



I agree with you to a point. Good government is essential to regulating private industry, but I don't think anybody has found a particularly good one yet. Special interests, campaign donations, spin control, and polls control the direction of politics, not enlightened self-interest. True in the USA. True pretty much everywhere that calls itself a democracy or republic.



Are you sure they don't?



Regulate, not direct. The very nature of government is to expand, because AS AN ENTITY it is not accountable to the people. Go ahead and vote out your leaders - the 99-1/2% of federal employees that actually do things will remain unchanged. It's in their interest to balloon projects, not to shrink them, leading to inefficiency and waste. Private business, on the other hand, tries to rip every non-essential factor out of operations to enhance short-term profits. The key is to let them do this while enforcing minimums to ensure that services are adequate and uninterrupted. Power, airline travel, and other examples show that we're not doing this correctly, I admit.

OK, there's an American admitting to a shortcoming here in the Land of the Free. Please mark your calendars.

This thread started as a comment about a power failure. I don't like the direction that it's taking. Expanding unwise comments by spokesmen into a listing of the faults of nations is a bit of a stretch. If you have opinions about American politics, that's fine. But I don't believe that a forum on a sci-fi game is the correct place to air them. Might want to take a second look at "The Political Machine" thread...
[Message Edited]

Oi Obi. I fervently hope you didn't take what I said as what you said.

I was quite flattered at your dissection of my points. Humour me and read my "reply". (I know better than to answer your points, point for point, but I feel compelled to say something coz I think ya got a bit worked up there. I'll do it quickly though.)

I respect America and like Americans. The large majority of Australians ditto.

By saying any country with a land border would be nervous and insecure, I meant culturally. American culture is so strong and all pervasive, that it is difficult (but not impossible) for many cultures to withstand. One way of doing that is to be fiercely pro-one's own culture, and perhaps anti-the other culture. That is what I observe when I see Canadians and Americans going for it with each other. I didn't expect to see America 'liberating' Canada in the next year or so. Indeed, I didn't even know about the war of 1812, except that a Canadian mentioned in their thread that they won a war against the States! They sure remember. I mentioned Altarians as a pathetic attempt to link it back to Galciv, but you saw straight thru that.

Australia is trying to negotiate a free-trade agreement with the States. Only thing is that we would be required to dismantle every concession we give to Oz industries such as the film & TV industry. And those things affect our culture. ie they mean more to us than they do to the States.

I am a believer in Governments running essential services. If essential services are sold off, I don't think that regulation is as effective. Hence essential services degrade over time and lead to blackouts.



Obi. That sounds bitter! That doesn't sound like the Obi I know. Americans admit their shortcomings all the time. Heh heh. Look at Michael Moore.



You're right, the topic about America's place in the world has been a hot topic of conversation for 100 years now. We sure aren't going to come to any truths about the matter. But I like discussing politics with my little Galciv mates, or reading what they have to say. How many other Aussies do you know you can have a natter with about these things?

I agree totally with what you said. You only have to watch a cross-section of American TV or movies or read American authors to see that Americans can be critical of themselves/Government/President/past actions.

Why did this get so political... Always a bad idea, especially in a forum meant for a game that has left most of you locked in your rooms playing for hours on end. What do you know about the world? That's a joke by the way...

I did laugh when someone said that power was out in "southern" Canada. What an interesting concept. That's quite a stretch of territory! Of course as everybody probably know now, it was just most of Ontario which is tightly linked with the USA's power grid.

It is shameful how officials in both countries behaved upon losing power. They immediately started pointing fingers of blame with no facts. This is called Slander... Now a few days later, and it looks like both sides were wrong, but we still don't really know. They think it's a company in Ohio, but they still aren't really sure. I just cringed when the first thing the officials on both sides did was blame the other, especially since you knew they had no idea what the cause was. Now they tell us it could take months to understand. If it takes months, whay blame someone within minutes?

What was nice to see is how well behaved, and generally courteous the people were in most affected cities. A few idiots here in Ottawa not withstanding of course.

Anyway it was interesting that's for sure. Here in Ontario, they still don't have all the nuclear generators online again so we're running with reduced power loads right now.

Nuclear generators!!! Now that's a hot topic!

Killa,

OK, sorry if I read that wrong. I just tend to get a bit worked up when I think somebody's stepping on my country's flag. No harm, no foul, apologies for misunderstandings accepted all round. Next time I post a story on the Southern Seas thread, my Jedi alter-ego is buying the first round. Besides, the beer is better down under!



While I don't agree with the first point in most cases (as you probably figured out from my post! ), I have to admit that nuclear energy is something that works BADLY when run by private industry. I grew up less than 10 miles from a nuke plant. You see what it's done to me!

Actually, I think France has a decent power system, although I haven't heard much about it lately so my information could be out of date. Nuclear breeder reactors run by the government were the overwhelming bulk of the system during the '80s. Clean, efficient, and if well run, a source of abundant, cheap power with minimal environmental impact. If they're badly run, though, hello Chernobyl or Three Mile Island.

In Oz we love our coal generators, although I've chosen to buy my electricity from clean sources, ie solar power. It costs an extra dollar/month. I don't think popular opinion would ever allow nuclear generators here, and it would cause friction with Indonesia too.

And a big wave to North Korea.

*diplomacy mode on*

I do. I never said Germany was the greatest country in the world (it actually isn't). Neither is Europe THAT great (Well, thinking about it, Europe (esp. the EU) really SUCKS!).

And please note this: I do NOT hate the US! I do not hate YOU! I even admire you for your values (freedom...), and for your open-mindedness. I just do not undertstand why some (I don't want to write "many") Americans obviously ignore what's going wrong in their country (Patriot Act, another good example...).

So, the US has the highest defense spending in the world... lower it a little bit and it won't hurt anybody (in the sense of the word), but you can do much good also for your own people!



Godd point, I also don't. But when I look at US policies, I sometimes get this impression. Start a war and the congress stops protesting at once... Create a public enemy (Bin Laden and others) and large parts of the population won't even question your decisions - at least not in form of real opposition or a persuasive change in public opinion... Treat terrorists like animals whose lives have no value and the masses will cheer to you...

And, speaking as a German, I do not understand the whole concept of patriotism. We lost ours 60 years ago. For a good reason.

*diplomacy mode off*

Enough politics for today... maybe we should really leave that kind of discussion to the politicians. Let's get back to the game, folks...

Hooray!

Actually the practice what you preach referred to you telling me to tone down my voice a little when you in-fact were doing the same thing with your that is so POOR flame.

I didn't tell YOU to tone down a little. That was a general address... I think I'll write "poor" next time.



It's so great to make people happy!

I'm always amused when people suggest one should just 'get back to the game'.

After all, Galciv reflects the socio-political world view of Frogboy and the team at Stardock, who in their turn have been indoctrinated by the American educational system plus other influences like their mums. Need I point out the correlation between higher scores and the building of infrastructure, vast military armadas, and 'happy' populations? I actually think that Galciv is base on socialism. I'm just surprised that Galciv doesn't also offer a full range of political parties at set-up including communism.

Interesting thoughts for a "very evil" player.

Am I right, Hitler? (That was a joke...)

Well, you know the evil quote that fits Galciv like a hand in a glove:

One death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic.

Last time I checked, the US owed the UN their support payments, which hadn't been paid.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't NATO established for the defense of the US against the Soviets?

And you can't blame people being wary of a country that stifles desent, and slams free speech for so-called patriotism. Blind, flag-waving "patriotism" is as bad as blind faith. (By which I mean all the violence and destruction done in the name of religion by terrorists following somebody's twisted interpretation of their holy writs.)

(And "so-called patriotism" because, no matter my views on the war, when a decorated Vietnam vetern is called unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq... it's just so wrong I can't describe it.)
("Patriotism" because it is entirely possible to be proud of your country and not the current heads of state. I for one am glad I'm Canadian, and love Canada, but I can still be annoyed at our current government. Heck, I know the US system of checks and balances actually work better, and that when we bought the constitution home, we just gave our politicians the power to effestively veto any changes in the government.)

~SDC~