Only MY intellectual property counts..

A view from the glass house

I've been observating (and participating) in some interesting..ahem..discussions with regards to Adam's article on using SkinStudio to import .msstyles files as WindowBlinds skins.

Some intersting "outrage" at the thought that some user, in the privacy of their own home, might run a skin that was originally in .msstyles format in WindowBlinds. That this was, somehow, a violation of the rights of the skinner.

Let's be clear: No one is suggesting that someone should be able to import in a .msstyles skin and then start being able to upload it around. You still need permission. The rights of the skin author should still be respected.

But we also have to have some perspective as well. .msstyles is MICROSOFT'S FORMAT.  It's a format that NO ONE has legally licensed to make use of. And it gets worse - every single .msstyles on the net is a derivative of the Luna.msstyles.  People either reshack luna.msstyles (or an existing derivative of it) to change the bitmaps and data in it or they use a $20 editor that is available that reshacks luna.msstyles with a prettier interface. 

The reason WinCustomize currently does not have a .msstyles section is because of that issue: Can we condone the distribution of what is borderline pirated files?  It's the same reason why we don't include Boot screens that are patched files of the NT kernal (we only support .bootskin and had to write a freeware program just so that we could have boot screens here).  You can't just patch someone else's copyrighted stuff and pass it around.  Believe me, I would love to have a .msstyles section here from a purely capitalistic point of view and if someone can rationalize it for me to have a section for them, go for it - I'm ready to believe.  But like I said, we're talking pretty gray market stuff.

But let's get back - so then the people who object to the idea that WindowBlinds would somehow profit from the ability to make use of .msstyles.  This is apparently somehow different than the commercial programs that have existed for the past 3 years that make use of .msstyles by patching uxtheme.dll.

And anyone who claims that hacking your system files to use .msstyles should explain to others why the main sites that promote patching uxtheme.dll do not have forums.  Even the main NON-FREE developer of a uxtheme patching program removed their forums. The most popular .msstyles distribution site has no forums.  Could it possibly be that it's because of the technical disasters it causes? I don't know. What I do know is how much tech support WE get from people who messed around with their files and blew away their default visual style or had problems when they applied a service pack or something else.  In my opinion, anyone trying to claim that patching your system files (either in RAM or on disk) is "safe" is not telling the whole story.

Puttin that aside - there are already programs making a profit from .msstyles and have been for years. Where's the outrage? But because the handful of original msstyles floating around the net might be able to be added to the 3000+ existing WindowBlinds skins Stardock is the greedy one? Please.

Regardless of the format, the rights of skin authors need to be respected. They are artists.  As the #6 most downloaded skin author on this site, I know something of the work that goes into skinning.  But I also know where my rights end.  When someone downloads my skin onto their own computer, my rights end.  What they do with it on their own computer is their business. People have been downloading and modifying skins for their own use since day 1.  And of all formats, .msstyles authors happen to be using a format that requires them to be using someone else's stuff without their permission in the first place. 

45,805 views 136 replies
Reply #1 Top
Forget the issue of the legitimacy of making .mstyles skins for a moment, and lets take a look at the skinner's intellectual property rights relating to what users can and cannot do with the skins they download. If the skin author were to distribute there skin in a zip file with a EULA that clearly states "the end user may not import this skin for apps other than the one this skin was designed for, not even for personal use," would this then restrict the home user from importing to other apps for personal use, or would this EULA have no legal standing?
Reply #2 Top

Not in the least.

The user has a copyright on the portions of the file they created.

Since they don't own the underlying format (msstyle) they do not have the right to make such an EULA.

For instance, if I were passing around a patched copy of the NT kernal without permission, I couldn't say "You may not use this on Dell computers because I hate them." 

Now, if someone made their own format or program or something then they would have more leeway on that.  But that's one of the problems with msstyles in the first place: EVERY msstyle is a derivative of a Microsoft copyrighted file.

It's Microsoft's rights that are really being infringed.

Reply #3 Top
The EULA would have perfect legal standing, but then again, so does the WindowsXP one. It's only a *real* issue if you get caught. I'm not promoting it by any means, but seriously, its impossible to enforce!
Reply #4 Top
No. That EULA would have no legal standing. From what you are saying the catch is "Personal Use". You have the right to modify ANYTHING you put on your computer for your "PERSONAL USE", even Microsoft Windows, if you have the ability. However, you CANNOT distribute in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM! Remember, the catch is the difference between "PERSONAL USE" and "DISTRIBUTION".
Reply #5 Top
The EULA would have perfect legal standing


The EULA has no legal standing in JesseJ's example. You cannot claim ownership of a format that already belongs to another company. Just the same as if I were to put the same EULA within a *.wba file. That too has no legal standing. I don't own the file format, Stardock does. What the user does with the images within the file once downloaded is their business, so long as they don't redistribute the images, in any format, without my permission.

Moving away from skins for a moment...If I go out and buy a music CD, I can rip it to my PC, then load it into a personal device without the consent from the muscian. So long as I am not redistributing the muscian's works (file sharing) I am okay. I can even take songs from several artists' CD's and burn a compilation CD to listen to and I'm still in the right. Further still, I can use software to manipulate (re-mix) the songs for my personal taste.


Moving even further away from skins for a moment...I go out and buy a new H2 with my lottery winnings (I can pretend at least ) I can take it to a custom auto shop and have it pimped out without the consent of GM, though they own the H2 design. What I couldn't do is make copies of the H2 in my auto plant (hehe another pipedream) and sell them or give them away.

The key in all of this is redistribution
Reply #6 Top
Well, good point. But you still have the rights to your IMAGES, so you could put a EULA in about those...
Reply #7 Top
to be honest ... to me theres only maybe 2 MSstyles i would even consider useing...i looked through custos.org ms styles library....all 160+ of them.....and most were to bland for me ...i really dont see what all the hufin and puffin is about over there ...it seems that ya all got ganged up on.. and not by the skinners .. i think i saw. 1 or 2 MSstyles skinners with any thing to say... .. most seemed to be MS styles users/supporters blasting away at stardock..not really even a debate ..

i rarely wander away from WC anymore .. and now i remember why ...

a total shame.
Reply #8 Top
Umm....we have msstyles here?

Nevermind, typo fixed.
Reply #9 Top
was a typo
Reply #11 Top
Yeah. I have the right to do anything the hell I want to my own computer, as long as I don't sell or give away the modified files that have been copyrighted by anyone else.
Reply #12 Top
Wow, that didn't take long.

Maybe I'll write an editorial explaining my position and get everyone at customize.org to agree with me, just like you've gotten everyone here to agree with you. Funny how that works. If you can't see my one point, I'm flabberghasted. It's about respecting skinners. That's all. Not about intellectual property, not about illegality, not about Microsoft, not about YOU.

I do take issue with this comment though:

"The reason WinCustomize currently does not have a .msstyles section is because of that issue: Can we condone the distribution of what is borderline pirated files?"

How can you condone porting THOSE SAME PIRATED FILES TO YOUR FORMAT?

Hmmm. Because it'll sell more copies Windowblinds, that's why.

Why not just report this piracy to Microsoft? Because you want in on it. Because Microsoft is busy being influenced by the msstyle skinners, many who call custo home, just like they were influenced by the WB skinners before.

I don't want to be your enemy Brad, not at all. But gee whiz, we were actually ignorant of the feature until your man came into the site and started posting all the "it's happening whether you like it or not" jive.

Have some respect for people man, you know how it stings when people shit on you, don't do it these skinners.

Not much else to say. Really suprised at this post here.
Reply #13 Top
funny how the admin (frosted Flames) there blasted almost every winamp skinner in WC.""I look at your winamp skins and with the exception of a few (such as zrco, who also submits here) they are garbage.""


thats just pathetic..an admin of a site blasting all the skinners of a specific app .. calling their works garbage...

and ive seen frosteds WA skins ...you guys smoke him....
Reply #14 Top
no, frosted is right, alot of those skins ARE garbage. not to say that i like EVERY skin that frosted has done, but he has a very distinctive style that i like, and some of my favorite skins are by him.
Reply #15 Top
thats your OPINION. not fact..... but for an admin of a site to bash a group of skinners (at another site) in anger .. is just bad form....those winamp skinners had nothing to do with the thread at Custo.org.. why where they drug in to it ????..
Reply #16 Top
Maybe I'll write an editorial explaining my position and get everyone at customize.org to agree with me, just like you've gotten everyone here to agree with you.


Are you serious? As if Brad sent soem heavies round and forced me to agree with him!

The only thing Stardock can do to influence my opinion of them is to provide value for any money I may spend on them.

If you can't see my one point, I'm flabberghasted. It's about respecting skinners. That's all. Not about intellectual property, not about illegality, not about Microsoft, not about YOU.


And providing a way for a skinner to extend their reach to the wider community with their permission is disrespecting them... how?

Very few of the WB skinners get any kind of payment for what they do. It's a community too.

I suppose you're also against authors of books having their work translated into other languages too?

I've wasted enough bandwidth on this.


Posted via WinCustomize Browser/Stardock Central
Reply #17 Top
Maybe I'll write an editorial explaining my position and get everyone at customize.org to agree with me, just like you've gotten everyone here to agree with you.



he didnt have to i read the thread as it was happening ..
and i agreed with him before he wrote this thread....
Reply #18 Top
About as useful for me to try to explain to you guys as it is for Brad to explain his over there.

But still, too bad.
Reply #19 Top
Not wanting someone to use a skin because they use wb instead of msstyles (or other) is simply....... rascism.
Reply #20 Top
HG, the point was Brad couldn't magically get us to say "That's awesome" so he came back here and wrote an article for audience he knew would say "You're great Brad."

Using other people's work in way they did not intend to move more product is slimey. My opinion.
Reply #21 Top
When I was speaking in that forum, I made it clear that they were my views and I was not representing customize.org with those views.

My comment about the quality of winamp skins on this site still stands. I find that there are some very talented skinners here such as zrco. apocolypse67 is another that comes to mind... but the majority of the winamp skins here, I do find to be very poor quality. If that hurts your feelings, then that explains why you are at wincustomize and not customize.org. At customize we do not sugar coat it, we dont bullshit.. if something sucks, we will tell you so and offer criticism, if something is good we will also give you credit for good work. Some people cant handle being told that there work is not perfect. Face it, perfect doesnt exist.

Your opinion about my skins is fine. You are allowed your opinion, just as much as I am allowed mine.
Reply #22 Top
i see it as they added a function for those who wish to port their skins to WB....no biggy..

WC dont allow unauthorized ports. so even if a few do use it to make one .. they wont be allowed here

ok so its your opinion...true i left custo.org a long time ago because of the abuseive attitudes and the "If it aint minimal, it sux" attitudes. i had been recently talked in to returning to custo.org...but after the bashing i saw..
Reply #23 Top
Using other people's work in way they did not intend to move more product is slimey. My opinion.


and how do you know his motivation??? brad and crew have been around a hella long time and have devoted mass time and effort to all the skinning community .. even its competitors. and ive yet to see brad start charging for all the extras he provided over the years ...the stardock staff built a legit skinning app and decided to make some $ at it .. big deal .. hell i wish i could do something i love and get paid...geez lets just cruisify the guys for makeing their dream a reality.

i guess we should run off to winamp since they started chargeing for thier "enhanced edition" and rag on them too..(being that it uses free skins).

it has come to my attention, that any time stardock is mentioned .. its an all out war on most sites.(reguardless of the subject of the thread)..this kind of beat on each other mentality is what has driven many great skinning sites in to the crapper..
Reply #24 Top
Some people cant handle being told that there work is not perfect. Face it, perfect doesnt exist.



true .. but then telling them they suk and should give up dont help motivate them either...constructive criticism is better than being abuseive.
Reply #25 Top
"WC dont allow unauthorized ports. so even if a few do use it to make one .. they wont be allowed here"

Great policy. Not at all what I am talking about.

I will quote dunbar from the custo thread:

"As for who loses, that's a very subjective issue. Let me use a metaphor. You make a painting of a bridge, and donate it to an non-profit art museum. However, a business makes a copy of your painting and starts charging admission for people to see it. You meant your work to be free for everyone, but now it's being used by others to make money. In addition, you get no money from the business that copied your painting. Personally, I think the artist loses in that situation. It would certianly be tough to say that anyone other than company wins."

Very well said.