Getting seriously P*ssed off....

Despite running a pretty standard 1.009b3 (albeit with the CDG party pack) I've now had four out of six games flagged as anomalous - that has cost me 45,000 points - or about 7000 points in the metaverse placings.

Frogboy has suggested that techtree changes may be a cause, Carielf has suggested cash may have an effect - perhaps it's time to go public on the criteria....

Can someone PLEASE resolve this as a matter of urgency!!!
:notsure:
Alex

[Message Edited]
2,305 views 86 replies
Reply #1 Top
The easiest answer would be don't use CDG party pack if you are having trouble getting MV scores. BUT if you are just playing for fun then go ahead use all kinds of mods you like.

I'm useing my own mod and it has 10 brand new tech and about 20 brand new improvement and 5 new ships. With number of tests, it's working fine and metaverse seems acknowlege my game. I guess all you have to do is just make the mod more realistic in the game to prevent too much cash flow or too high PQ or someting abnormal.
Reply #2 Top
Would it were that simple.

Basically I'm using a GCCG variant, and the cashflow can get quite high. However, no-one's actually admitting what the cause is - perhaps they don't know!

However, I reckon it wouldn't be difficult to get anomalous scores with a "virgin" 1.009b3 system either!

Alex

~SDC~
[Message Edited]
Reply #3 Top
Alex - do you try resubmitting? Do they stay anomalous? I have a regular problem in anomolous scores - I usually save up my games and submit them at the end of a gaming session. I almost always see the first submitted score register as anomalous. I try again, that first score then goes through OK, and the rest of the scores also seem to go through. I have determined that I need to log on to this site, and view my own score card first - it somehow seems to 'wake up' the registering system. Dont know if this helps you or Stardock, but thought I'd offer it. Good luck mate!
Reply #4 Top
Many is the time
That I've tried to resubmit
Never with success

:p
Reply #6 Top
Well if you're using a mod and not a stock game, and if it's giving you heavy cash flow, that's an unfair advantage and should score zero.
Reply #7 Top
Just cranked a "stock game" and got anomalous despite an attempt to resubmit.

heavy cash flow
End of quote


Heavy cash flow is obtained purely by raping the AIs and the minors (giving gift to get them positive and then tech-whoring)


using a mod
End of quote


The only mods I've used have been from the library. If they unbalance the game that much they shouldn't be there.

Alex
Reply #8 Top
I was thinking something similar Pontius. I don't think any modded-up game should be submitted to (let alone accepted by) the metaverse. ANY modding, gives an unfair advantage to the user, even if it is a balanced MOD. The amount of the cash it may give, or the PQ, or even anomaly edits slant the game. There is a lot of talk about making the Metaverse better, this would be a good place to start. Level the playing field. SD is doing that by weighting the scores between 1.05 and 1.09, that's fine. But there is no way to weight the vast variety of mods that can hit the site. It should not allow any of them (mods) IMNSHO.
Reply #9 Top
I've finished and successfully submited games where I had over 250 000 bc in the bank . . . I'm using 1.05 with no mods. Don't know if that helps pin the cause? :notsure:
Reply #10 Top
Many is the timeThat I've tried to resubmitNever with success
End of quote


Dunno if I'm the only one who noticed...regardless, nice haiku, arobertson!
Reply #11 Top
I'm with Cotal - I've has very high cash flows with NO troubles (also using 1.05 clean version). I do agree with couslee's point in general, although alex can hardly be penalised for using an 'accredited' mod, especially if there was no warning that such use would render the score unsubmittable (if there's such a word).
Reply #12 Top
Certainly. Using an accredited MOD should have a weighted value (re comments about balancing it). But if that is not possible, then leave the "rubber stamped" mods for player enjoyment only and place a disclaimer.

Conversly, I an not using any mods, 1.05, and have no problem submitting my negative cash balance ending games to the metaverse either LOL
Reply #13 Top
The only mods I've used have been from the library. If they unbalance the game that much they shouldn't be there.
End of quote


And they've said several times that any mods are at your own risk. They've also said most of the ones in the library have been approved but it's still at your own risk.


And 1.09 is a beta. It is generally easier due to faster tech advancement. But it is a beta. You pays your money and takes your chances is an old economic saying.

Reply #14 Top
Dropped back to virgin 1.05.071 - cranked it hard (13k+), pushed the cash flows, no problem. Beginning to look like it might well be the tech tree in 1.009b3

However I did get a couple of CTDs...

Alex

[Message Edited]
Reply #15 Top
Cranked a medium to anomolous on a bog-standard 1.05 so it can be done although it went in on a resubmit

Top 50 at last!!!

~SDC~
[Message Edited]
Reply #16 Top
How in the world can a small beginner game score 13k?
Reply #17 Top
All the research, all the wonders, military victory and diametically opposite alignment to all the AIs; oh, and v1.05 rather than 1.09

Alex


~SDC~
Reply #18 Top
How in the world can a small beginner game score 13k?
End of quote


I think it has lot to do with tech research and influence(not by the sb module, by the colonized planets) points. Adding mods seems don't really raise that much points at all, perhaps few hundred points?

By the way Alder, if you are interested in joining an empire, Illuminati is more than honored. Man you rock with points and active submisions. It's just a click away... :D

http://www.galciv.com/metaverse/empires.asp?id=413

P.S. I had to ask you to join. I can't help myself...
Please somebody save me...... LOL
Reply #19 Top

The game will check to see if people are getting ridiculously high treasuries early in the game and flag it.

There is a, ahem, "strategy" in which at beginner level people have figured otu a way to bankrupt the AI while getting huge treasuries early on.

The "Strategy" is basically winning this way so that they can get immensely high scores for the metaverse.

We don't plan to "fix" this as we consider that an amazingly cheesy strategy and while people are certainly free to play the game any way they like, they don't have the right to infringe on other people's enjoyment of the metaverse by abusing the system.

That said, I will remove a couple of your anomoulous scores. However beware,  playing at beginner level so that you can crank up your metaverse score is not a good long term strategy.

I'll be plain: If the top players on the metaverse end up being made up largely of people playing at the easiest level taking advanage of the the scoring system (i.e. at the easiest level you can really cream the AI hence it is possible to get a disproportionately high score despite the low difficulty level) we will update the database to retroactively adjust scores based on difficulty level.

 


[Message Edited]
Reply #20 Top

There is a, ahem, "strategy" in which at beginner level people have figured otu a way to bankrupt the AI while getting huge treasuries early on.The "Strategy" is basically winning this way so that they can get immensely high scores for the metaverse.
End of quote


Do you mean immensely high game scores? If so check EBZ's record please. Ebz racks up alot of games to reach meta success, not a high score per game. And his score in each game is highly volitile And in my way of thinking, a volitile score record on the same size indicates less milking rather than more (or in this case a milking of completion speed rather than score per game)

As for bankrupting the civs, that is a well known and well used exploit. Ray does it. I do it. Everyone does it to the extent they can. It doesn't show up as well on our levels because we gotta do it in baby steps rather than one swoop so it takes longer. Plus on Gigantic, we cannot get to them as fast. And of course we can't out tech em quite as much either due to the level of play. But to the extent we can do it, we all do it. And it is the bankruption that is the exploit for points (because they won't build wonders with negative cash balances) not the piling up of cash. The cash just piles up more on beginner because well it's beginner.

It's also a well known fact to delay winning untill you get through the tech tree and the wonders. Some players even build culture bases on tiny's and give them away to alien civs to delay the win then buy them back for two cheap tech's when you want to win. Now to me that is cheesy. EBZ doesn't do that. Yet I hear no cheese accusation there. You can see posts all over the meta on that (get all the wonders and techs) I suspect it is because after the pop nerf made pop less important, these became more important, relatively speaking. Also, setting all evil ai's results in a 33-40% gain in score which EBZ doesn't do.

Why is it, those who exploit every cheese nook and cheese cranny on more difficulty are ok whereas EBZ who takes an innovative and opposite tack and exploits speed of game completion is cheesy?

Not that you're doing it Frogboy, but there's just to dang much whining over a game on here. No one complained about EBZ's tactics when he stank at it. It's only after I helped him refine his speed technique, and his rise in the rankings that the whining and crying started (again I'm not accusing you of it Frogboy just others) To me (apologies for bluntness) it's just beat down losers crying because they don't have the gumption to out duel him. Perhaps they should spend half the time playing that they do whining about score. And to top it off EBZ is serving military for their rigt to whine and cry like babies. Ticks me off just a wee bit.


As EBZ's past and future score victim, it makes no difference to me. His strategy isn't right for how I play the game. But I tried to help him develop one that is right for him. And it just goes to prove there are many many many ways that I, and others can skin the metaverse cat. Now what's the harm in that?


Reply #21 Top
I'll be plain: If the top players on the metaverse end up being made up largely of people playing at the easiest level taking advanage of the the scoring system (i.e. at the easiest level you can really cream the AI hence it is possible to get a disproportionately high score despite the low difficulty level) we will update the database to retroactively adjust scores based on difficulty level.
End of quote


Last I checked a couple weeks ago when this subject came up (I forget the thread)

6 of the top 10 played at painful or above, 7 at challenging or above, 1 at normal and 2 at beginner. None at cakewalk or suicidal)

So I don't think that's happening.

But if we are to have a meta where maso players are "guaranteed" through retroactive score recalcs to have the highest scores, then so on and so forth down the line count me out. That's boring and quite frankly wasting alot of your time on a formula where you could instead say maso win 10 points, 9, 8, 7 and so on if that's what you truly wanted.

And I for one think any rules changes should apply to future versions only. It's not quite fair to change ex-post facto the rules imo.

Thank you for a great game and a great meta.
Reply #22 Top
By the way Alder, if you are interested in joining an empire, Illuminati is more than honored
End of quote


He already has an empire.

Of course Aldar, if you'd like an exclusive franchise in folding your empire into G.R.O.S.S. just disband and register in the meta.
Reply #23 Top
As for bankrupting the civs, that is a well known and well used exploit. Ray does it. I do it. Everyone does it to the extent they can.
End of quote


Hmm... I don't. I don't know how to do it. Just you know and many of your friends in metaverse know don't mean everyone knows it and does it.

I always chose war party for it's high hitpoints for later games battles. For me, it's always just a survival until I get Ranger or Overlord technology.

I have no clue how some of those people in the top ranks or even in the lower ranks could play two or three games a day. This game has a lot of stuff to keep on eye on, so it always takes me at least two or three days to complete a single game. Perhaps they have found a ways to do it. If it's working for them then good for them. I rather stay with the way I play the game.
Reply #24 Top
Frogboy-

A cut/paste of my reply to this issue I posted on another thread, moved here since you appear to be paying attention to this one.


Personal opinion to follow, take it as you will:


Getting upset with a developed tactic and calling it cheese is just a method of denial and blame shifting.

Instead, Brad and Co. should be looking at the underlying problem and quietly kicking themselves for causing it. I'm not talking about a bug in the code, that happens in all software, I'm talking about the Metaverse scoring system.

I'll be the first to tell you that there is *NO* way I should be pulling 13k from tiny/beginner, should be more like 3k when compared to the 25k gigantic/maso scores. The GCCG tactic would never have even been developed, let alone written up and shared if this scoring system wasn't so poorly concieved.

The best way (IMO) to fix the whole issue is to spend the time to fix the Metaverse. Please don't tell me that you can't fund this, the Metaverse is an advertised feature of the game I purchased and a large part of the reason I bought it. Besides which, I honestly don't think it would take all that long to change the code to accurately reflect difficulty level of the game played. Bear in mind however, that when you do do this, it would be completely out of line to make it retroactive. Those of us that have played this system did so believing we were working within the rules to get the best score we could for ourselves and our empires, thus taking that from us would be an unjust punishment.
Reply #25 Top
Before everybody gets too worked up, I think this is a very important quote:

at the easiest level you can really cream the AI hence it is possible to get a disproportionately high score despite the low difficulty level
End of quote


Or to trim it down even more:

disproportionately high score
End of quote


I've seen several posts in the past that indicate that Stardock in general and Frogboy in particular wanted a Metaverse that rewarded dedication AND skill. It's just that all of the attempts to reward skill haven't quite measured up. Right now, it's easier to boost scores to levels that Stardock sees as "disproportionate" simply by playing easier levels. It should certainly be easier to WIN, but not necessarily score higher.

I've never "whined" about the scoring, and don't plan to start. I play the game for fun, and at my own pace, which means I'll probably never break the top 25. Lots of players are better than me. Maybe I can do better than a few. That's fine. When EBZ was looking for playtesters, he tagged me in the chat room, and I was ready to give it a shot for a change of pace. But I didn't upgrade to Drengin.net and version 1.09 until after he was ready to release the Guide. So, I missed it.

It's fun to try different strategies, but how each strategy is rewarded should be Stardock's call. They have the job of trying to make EVERYBODY happy here. I don't agree with the policy of not responding to anomalous scores for "cranking" - if this is an issue, just change the scoring and be done with it. Again, though, it's Stardock's decision on how to use their limited GalCiv resources. Even if we don't always like it. On balance, I think they're doing OK.

EBZ is a great guy; I've chatted with him several times. He's obviously having fun here, and wanted to share that fun with others. That's what the Metaverse and forums are for. And hey, it's his $50 spent on the game ($80 with a Drengin upgrade) - he can play however he wants to. But we shouldn't confuse all of that with guaranteed Metaverse scoring.