Frogboy and Cari-

After having spent the night in considered thought over these issues, and having reread much of what has been posted, I believe I have more to contribute to this discussion. Much of what was said yesterday by people here was said in the heat of the moment as it were, but I hope that today we can discuss this more calmly and without any histrionics.


Point the first:

More than one person yesterday was offended by Frogboys statement of "I am the CEO of a multimillion dollar corporation. I am a busy guy." Add to that Cari just moments ago adding to it with examples of what else he could be doing. Please do myself and all the other residents here the courtesy of remembering that our time is just as important to us as your time is to you. I could be playing with my daughter, or getting a few more hours of sleep, etc. and so could anyone else here, but we are here because we also have an emotional attachment to what is going on here.

Point the second:

I understand very well why you are so busy, even according to the standards of your industry you are a very small company. As such, you have to operate with a very small staff of dedicated people that are required to multitask in order for you to stay afloat. If I haven't said so in so many words in the past then I say it now; I truly appreciate the time you take to make the game and the community a better place, both on the boards and in development (I think I speak for the vast majority here in this). However, I think it is necessary to remind you that there are a number of folks here on the other side of the discussion that have *also* put alot into this community and as such deserve an appropriate amount of respect for it. I don't personally claim to be one of those, but I am sure that you are aware of who they are.

Point the third: Anomolous scores

This is just my opinion so take it with whatever dose of salt you feel appropriate. The simplest fix to this issue that I can come up with is to change the meta to disinclude anomolous scores when it tallies your total score. Following that, make an announcement that since these scores are not counting either for or against you, it will no longer be possible to get them fixed so please don't email asking for it. The loss of time should be penalty enough to the player riding the edge, there is no need to also tank his or her score.

Point the fourth: Scoring and Competitiveness

This is the heart of the issue here, not the anomolous scores, not bruised egos or hurt feelings, nor any other peripherally related item. To more fully understand, and thus overcome, this difficulty, we need to accept some basic facts.

First, human beings are intensely competitive. This is what has gotten the human race where it is today, by forcing to our will or grinding out of existence anything that stands in our path, sad but true. The more skillful a person is at a given task, the more advantage they have, but it is the most intensely competitive that generally rise the highest.

Brad, you are, as you have pointed out, the CEO of a company in one of the most competitive industries on the planet. That being said, you cannot possibly tell me that when you created the Metaverse and its scoring system that you were unaware that people would seek to find the very best way that they could to raise their scores and that of their empires. You could not hold the position you do without being highly competitive yourself. That being said, we move on to the second fact.

Secondly, the scoring system was poorly concieved and needs to be fixed. I have said it earlier, and I now say it again; if the scores more accurately reflected the difficulty of the win, the GCCG would never have been created or posted. Whatever way you choose to fix this, you must realize that this is what needs work, and fixing it will solve the other problems you are having because of it. A number of folks have given various suggestions, notably the above post by Pontius, but in the end it is up to you to balance it as you see fit.

Point the fifth: After the fix

This point I consider critical to the continued health of the community, so I cannot stress it enough. To make this point, I will use an example that I hope you can relate to, which will not be financially accurate, but will demonstrate the *emotional* impact that your decision will have on your customers and community.

You are sitting in your office working on your current project when one of your people tells you that you have visitors from the Department of Justice and the IRS. A bit nervously (as is anyone when the IRS comes to visit), you have them shown in. After quickly assuaging your mild fears over the cause of their visit, they proceed to tell you about a new law that has just gone into effect and what it means for your company. You sit and listen attentively, new laws are constantly being effected in the business world, but then the last of what they tell you sinks in. This law will be enforced retroactively to the day your company formed. Yes sir, of course you obeyed all the laws as written for the entire time you have done business, but we feel it would be better to penalize you for not obeying future laws as well.

How will you feel?

What will you do?

Yes, that was a bit of drama, but consider; if you do *not* make the new scoring system retroactive, what will happen?

1) A number of players, including some of the more active ones in the community, will *not* quit in disgust.

2) The problem with cranking games for score will diminish into obscurity as people adjust and find new ways to enjoy the game and community.

3) Those scores that currently are comprised, in part or in whole, of cranked games will gradually adjust due to the time degradation effect, thus leaving the Metaverse exactly as you envisioned it from the start.


In conclusion, I'd like to say that I enjoy the game and especially the forum here immensely. The GalCiv community is in general comprised of gamers who are more intelligent and mature than you will find anywhere else, and I'd love to see that continue.

Ahem, it's EBZ. Well I wouldn't have asked so many times, if you guys had provided a solution EARLIER.



Ahhh, you're being redundant again...I'm not going to repeat myself.



Ahhh, but some of us aren't any good at anything over beginner, liek myself (sorry if the truth hurts...). Well if everything didn't seemed developed in a sort of 'MOO3' fashion, then perhaps none of this would've ever happened.



Ahhh, a age old statement. I thought that once, yet I got bored with GalCiv, so I made it a point to show how good I am on the meta (in anyway I wish legally). Hate to bring it to you, but the meta IS part of the game (those that wish to be in it). Who are you to tell us how we should play the game, or even play the metaverse? If that was that case Brad, then quite a few of us wouldn't have stuck around.



Redundancy again... YOU told us to play the game for fun, which is what I simply do. At the same time I see that statement you made contradictory to what you said earlier, which was to play the game, not the metaverse.

I'm sure as you can see, I have plenty of people backing me up on my views and the GCCG. A few ppl are leaving because of your statments, Brad... since I am in a position of being seen as a 'enemy' of the devs, you can opt me from purchasing GC 2, or any other related (including anything is SD)...again, I'm sure there are others going that path as well.

It's also funny how since I have stumbled upon all of this, I never even got a thanks from the devs from discovering something so important such as the GCCG... im my eyes, the dev group isin't thankful for people liek me on my hard work and dedication for what I have found at all... I have zero sympathy for them as well.

Brad:
Play the game, not the metaverse.I'm sorry but I have zero sympathy for people playing at the easiest level purely to crank up their metaverse score.

Response:
Beginner is one level below normal. Easy, but certainly not the easiest. And I always hear play the game not the meta, yet every scoring change imo has made it more necessary to play the meta, not less. Your accelarated tech in 1.09 will actually encourage the beginner speed strategy. Our suggestions, however well intentioned, have had the opposite effect. I have no more in that regard because even though none of mine are accepted, I've come to realize we who know nothing about the ins and outs and coding of the system should shut up regarding specifics.




Brad:
Here's a tip: If you're good at the game, don't play at "Beginner". It makes it pretty obvious what the goal in the submission is. Anyoen reading this is certainly free to play at any difficulty level they want, but at the same time, don't expect us to come running and edit people's metaverse accounts because the system detected an anomolous score.

But if this post is the way you feel, why bother with all the programing, hardship and heartaches of the current scoring system at all? Just go x points for maso, y for crippling on down the line and forget all the other scoring criteria. Then adjust down on the easier levels of course if any beginner has the audacity to even think he can be a top player.

You said yourself that you wanted a meta where people of all skill levels could compete. Yet now I detect an opposite tact where harder level player's are guaranteed to be on top.

Not everyone can play harder levels. EBZ may be one of those. If you want to blame someone for the bankrupt technique, blame me. I use it (obviously to a lesser extent because of difficulty) and suggested he try it to help him get more wonders in. He discovered he could use that to play the game even faster so he wouldn't have to go through the rigormoral of starbases, trade routes... and all that time consuming stuff. I did it so the likes of he, could compete with the likes of me. Despite the fact that I helped him alot, I don't think I could duplicate his speed. I assert that his speed is a skill just as much as my attention to detail or Ray's Maso. It's just a different skill. A skill that those who don't have the same type of skills as me, or the same type of skills as Ray can use to compete, and that's a good thing. Now if there's a total size imbalance and a total difficulty imbalance that needs to be addressed that is one thing, but this stuff that's going on now is quite another imo. And I don't think the technique makes a mockery of the scoring system, or the "integrity of the metaverse" whatever that means... or anything else.


Lastly. I sense this is about far more than just anomolous scores. Which have been taken care of. We all know it won't be corrected. Again. Noooo problem with that... I understand.

EBZ has aready posted that warning. Everyone now knows and will adjust accordingly. But the debate goes on. I sense those were the trigger, but that this has been brewing awhile. This issue has come up on our thread and forums alot even before ebz wrote up a guide. Given the adamant and imflammatory writings we've been bombarded with (and in my opinion most of it is mere whining and crying as I didn't whine when I was passed). And now to see you and stardock officially endorse the same opinion is disappointing to say the least. I don't choose to play EBZ's way. But I never knew me helping him or him helping other beginners to compete would cause this kind of animosity that players that ebz passed would post things like a mockery of the metaverse and then you guys would then give official sanction to it. I take very big issue with that. I'm beginning to wonder whether it was all worth it. It certainly isn't all that much fun at the moment.


Now I've spoken all I ought to. Anything more and I'd be talking past you not to you. That's not productive at all so I won't do it.

Again, Brad, thanks for a fun game and a fun meta... And better than excellent support.
And fun is what it was supposed to be about. The fact that EBZ passes me or not detracts from my fun not one bit. It shouldn't detract from anyone else's either. Sadly from my perspective, it obviosly has. Some just cannot handle a beginner above them.... For that, I am sorry.



[Message Edited]

My response:



I'm reposting this response to your comments in Fellowship News thread. I promised myself I wouldn't get into this thread, and here I go....but now that I'm here, I'm just going to say this:

Can we just get back to playing a game? I find it disturbing that adults are griping with each other about a number on the Internet. Yes, I enjoy the competition just as much as the next person, but in the end, who is going to profit from all this bickering? Nobody, as this thread is doing nothing more than driving new players away.

Play...The...Game

[Message Edited]

Get off your soapbox. Come down to Reality. Bottom line. Several in your empire made the same kind of statements before. They also made the cheese allegation before. Perhaps you Ringworms should look in the mirror when you evaluate who causes new players not to want to play.
Did you ever stop to think it's your incessant oh this guy doesn't belong because he plays beginner eminating from members of your empire driving new players (who are beginners most likely) away? Did you ever stop and think Gengsta, who went around the forums... Oh I find this person Generic... His writing stinks... Not up to intellectual snuff... drove newbies away? Did you ever say anything to these people? Nooo of course not. [Message Edited]
[Message Edited]

The bottom line is none of this was started by us. It was dropped on us. What do you expect us to do just shut up and let it go on?

Frogboy, Cari, and Stardock employees in general: I hope you're still browsing this thread.

I have said - and continue to - that the Metaverse is your baby, Stardock. Score it as you will. Brad, you've obviously invested a lot of your own dreams into this product, based on your recent backstory, etc. It's refreshing to see a software company developing a game just because they like games. Many people here have purchased a Drengin.net upgrade just because they appreciated the support they were getting from a company.

BUT...

As someone who has worked with and for companies a lot bigger than Stardock, I am stunned at the negative tone in your comments, Brad.

OK. Stardock is just a company like any other - you're a CEO and have responsibilities and other duties. Point taken. That's a wake-up call that we all needed, and I'm not being sarcastic here. It's always easier to ask a favor from a friend than from a business, and maybe we needed to be reminded of that.

But,



Your hardcore gamers are here, Brad. WE spend time every DAY posting in this community just because we enjoy the game and the company of friends. This is a slap in all of our faces. NOBODY in business tells paying customers ($50 or so for the game + $30 for Drengin) to take a hike and go look at somebody else's product. NOBODY.

I have no problem with any of your actions, only your words. You posted several times on this topic yesterday. Instead of venting, would it have been difficult to post something like this?

"Although Stardock respects every player's right to have fun with the game, please remember that the Metaverse is intended to be a BALANCE of skill and dedication. Because the game is coded to recognize any tactics that the developers felt would 'abuse' the scoring, you should be aware that the recent tactics designed to maximize scoring for low-difficulty games may result in anomalous scores on the Metaverse. Responding to complaints about these scores is hurting Stardock's ability to respond to other requests, and to function as a comprehensive support network for all players. If your scores are not corrected, please do not be upset; we are working to support the community as a whole."

This agrees pretty much with what you've been saying. The difference is the tone. This is polite. You were pretty darned rude to somebody who's shelled out cash to support you. "I'm a CEO of a multi-million dollar outfit." "I have no sympathy for cheese tactics." Well, I work for the president of a multi-billion-dollar company who'd scream bloody murder if he heard anybody sarcastically suggesting another product to a potential customer, much less one who'd already come up with cash.

Cari, your post to EBZ was clearly well thought-out, and I'm sorry if he slammed you in response. But customers sometimes do get worked up about things that make perfect sense to THEM.

This is obviously a community that enjoys the shirtsleeve atmosphere around Stardock as much as we enjoy the game and the friends that we've made here. Let's not lose it by getting annoyed with individuals instead of situations.

A complete lack of response to either of these threads on the part of the devs today when they were so active yesterday is rather telling.

Never enter the arena of debate with those unwilling to learn.

What more is there for us to say? We've stated our position.

With regards to subsequent posts:

I think some people go out of their way to be offended.

Perhaps the issue is that some people aren't familiar with the entire situatoin.

On multple occasions, myself and Cari have personally edited EB's metaverse account to remove anomolous scores.  We did some investigation as to why this was happening and told him.

My point about mentioning that I'm the CEO of Stardock wasn't designed as hubris, its intent was to drive home the point thta my job is not to be EB's personal metaverse servant.  It's not as if he's emailing support. He's emailing me directly and Cari directly. He's been told specifically that his strategy is activating the trainer detection that is in the game to flag the game as anomolous. He knows how to avoid it. But he chooses to continue to do it.

If he believes this is a bug (we don't) he can report it to [email protected] (stardock technically doesn't do tech support, we do it purely to help out where we can).

But it's a bit upsetting to us that users have so taken us for granted that when we don't agree to manually edit his metaverse account on demand on an ongoing basis.

As I always point out, we have finite engineering hours available to us. Which feature or update should we axe so that we can devote time to EBZ personally?

I would have thought people here would think it's pretty cool that the developers of the game have repeatedly personally intervened to help out metaverse scores. Instead, not only does it seem unappreciated but in fact taken totally for granted.

I also find it highly offensive when people start implying "Well we're your customers so you have to put up with whatever we hand out." No, we don't. Cari and my presence here are strictly voluntary. We are here because we care about the community. We believe in the community and te relationship we have built together. I would be veyr wary about abusing that relationship.

We're not tech support people. We're the developers themselves. We're not going to respond "thank you for your abuse, please send more." when we get flamed. Particularly when we feel it's unfair.

I do agree anomolous scores should come up before you submit and it's something we'll look at for the next build.

I have not, and refuse to, say anything derogatory about anyones' choice of game difficulty Pontius. If anything, I've gone out of my way to tell players to play whatever gives them the most enjoyment. I know you're not referring to me specifically, so I'm not going to go on and on about this.

From this point on, I'm with Brad. It's all been said before. What more is there to say? I'll gracefully step out of this conflict and continue my enjoyment of the game and the Metaverse.

No hard feelings. No grudges, okay?

Thanks for the response, it's appreciated.

I have to agree (and have always agreed) that the constantly going in and fixing the anomolous scores for folks is a time sink and just plain irritating. I also agree that EBZ has gotten alot too dramatic about the whole issue.

I hope my posts have shown that my concern has never been to have the devs be servants to us, it was just concern over the underlying issue of scoring in general.

I also hope that I haven't seriously offended anyone over this issue, but to any I may have, my apologies. Keep up the good work everyone

I, for one, did not take offense at Frogboys reference that he is a very busy CEO. For those who would compare your time spent on this forum with Frogboy's and CariElf's:

Yes a lot of us are busy. But it seems pretty silly to try to equate our time spent on the forum (and with the metaverse in general) with that of the devs. We are doing this as a recreational activity. Although I'd hope the devs derive some pleasure from this forum, they spend time on here to fix our problems and improve our gaming experience, not the other way around.


[Message Edited]

Yes, it's telling that I want to get some work done.  Since EBZ posted this thread, if I haven't been reading this thread, I've been upset by it.  I don't like strife.  I've learned not to post immediately out of anger, and I try to choose my words carefully even when I'm pissed.  Even if I do post bitter or angry words, they're the third or fourth revision. 

EBZ said that he wanted to vent when he posted this.  Fine.  But the venting should have been done in an e-mail.  It was immature and unprofessional to make the post in the way that he did.

I wanted people to know that his strategy was high risk for getting anomalous scores, and that there was a way around it if people still wanted to use it.  

But this thread was intended to inflame, and it's accomplished, if anything, little more than bringing me grief.  I'm probably taking it too personally, but it's been a huge slap in the face for me.  I stepped through EBZ's save games in the debugger to find out what was tripping the cheat flag, and told him what was tripping it, on August 8th, 6 days before his thread announcing the launching of his website.  So much for his complaint that we didn't tell him early enough. Maybe he should check his chat logs! I was at least an hour helping him, late in the day, when I was hungry and tired. But you know why I did it? Because I like helping people. It makes me feel good.  Well, look what helping EBZ got me.  No, I'm not totally soured on helping people yet.   But I'm going to get back to bug hunting and coding.  While the inanimate is perverse, it doesn't have nearly the capacity to wound that humans do.

This seems like a good thread to express my gratitude to Brad, CariElf, and everyone at Stardock for an excellent game and incredible support. For me Galciv is a great game but it is only a game and the forum is a part of that game. But for you folks at Stardock who have invested countless hours and effort into creating Galciv it is a as much a part of your life as it is a job. That said it is easy to understand how and why CariElf and Brad would be upset by some of the sentiment expressed in this thread. For them it is personal. So please take this personally.....Thank You. I think you have created a great game and helped to form a fun community.

Ditto to surther answer. God bless you all for your hard work and keep it coming.

Well said.



~SDC~

Frogboy, Cari, and Stardockians in general:

I apologize if you have been hurt by the fact that some of us - myself included - spoke strongly on this issue. As I stated earlier,



That includes me. For those of us who waited years for MOO3 to come out and were then disappointed not only at the game, but at the support we received on it, GalCiv was a breath of fresh air. Maybe some of us started to think of you folks more as forum buddies and a personal support network, leading to disappointment and even anger when an issue set you against some of the players.

My first post on this topic is still hanging around the forums somewhere; it's pretty conciliatory and rational. What set me off in my later post (above) was your tone, Brad. And I did sleep on it before submitting it here.

The additional information that you provided today on the timeline of EBZ's knowledge, and on the fact that he was addressing you and Cari personally, sheds some light on your frustrations. But if he used rancor in his postings, I believe that you did as well. And, like EBZ, you did so publicly. Please understand - if you were upset to read this sort of thing here, many of us were equally upset at your comments.

Cari, I apologize if any of my postings have caused you grief. Even in mid-gripe to Brad, I still mentioned that your post to EBZ was well thought-out. The same can be said for your chat log, where you were obviously trying to make the best of an awkward situation. I for one appreciate your forebearance when you were singled out in a situation not of your making.

I am informed by my Tennessee colleagues that chocolate is the only acceptable bribe to go with an apology to a female. If you would let me know Stardock's mailing address at your location, I'd be happy to send you some.

Thank you all for providing not only a great game, but also for setting up a fine community.

Recent research has found that the chemicals found in dark chocolate can significantly reduce high blood pressure.

Is that an appeal for us all to post chocolate to Cari at Stardock?

Not sure if that would be a good or bad thing. Imagine arriving into work in the morning and discovering that you have 172 bars of chocolate which have arrived in the post. Good on a Monday, but by Friday you would be sick of them!

Paul.

~SDC~

You can donate some to the skinny people LOL LOL chocolate

LOL, I suppose that we could always stick the chocolate in the freezer once we got sick of it!

mmmmmm... Frozen chocolate. My favourite!

Paul.

~SDC~

Scientists investigating some Precursor ruins on Geta I have recently discovered an immense deposit of chocolate. All planets in the system have increased their morale by 100%.