Adjusting Mil/Soc/Res ratio affects profit?

I find if I push my Research slider to towards 100% my income starts dropping. Eg - towards the end of a recent game I was making a profit of around 300BC/month - with my sliders on 33% each. I was going for a Tech victory so pushed my Research slider to 100% and the other 2 to zero.
My income dropped to -500BC/month.
Can someone explain how this works? I always thought your profit was just divided up amongst Mil/Soc/Res according to the slider ratios.
thanks.
455 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top
You might want to look at FSK+ reply in this threadhttp://www.galciv.com/forum.asp?BID=GS&id=61700#62167
Reply #3 Top
I find if I push my Research slider to towards 100% my income starts dropping. Eg - towards the end of a recent game I was making a profit of around 300BC/month - with my sliders on 33% each. I was going for a Tech victory so pushed my Research slider to 100% and the other 2 to zero.
My income dropped to -500BC/month.
Can someone explain how this works? I always thought your profit was just divided up amongst Mil/Soc/Res according to the slider ratios.
End of quote


There's two issues at work here...

First, your income isn't divided up at all. Your income is purely in terms of taxes. (The following particular facet is speculation on my part, but it makes sense, and fits the observed facts:) If people aren't producing things, there isn't anything to sell, and pure research doesn't tend to produce much more than prototypes. If there isn't anything to sell, there isn't any income to tax.

Second, your spending has no relation to your income whatsoever. (This facet is stated fact.) The spending slider determines how much of your potential resources are being used. The the individual slider settings determine how much of that particular production capability your using, not how much of your spending goes toward those facilities. If your sliders are set to 33%-33%-34%, you are using 33% of your military production capability, 33% of you social production capability, and 34% of your research capability; rather than using 33% of your total spending on military production, etc.

~SDC~
Reply #4 Top
This is very enlightening, but one thing I still don't understand:
The fact that the three sliders must add up to 100% implies that they are slicing up some kind of resource "pie". What is this resource if it's not income? Why can't I use 100% of my military production capability, 100% of my social production capablity, and 100% of my reasearch capablity?
Reply #5 Top
People are actually reading and citing my posts! I was in grad school for 3 years and nobody ever read anything I wrote.

The 3 sliders are your "base production". Your base production is determined by planet quality and population. You use your military/social/research slider to decide how your base production is allocated, rounding down. Then, you use your overall spending slider (below your tax bar) to decide what level you're funding. Then, bonuses are added to each individual category.

Your base production is determined by planet quality and population. How much of that base production you can use depends on how much cash you have available. Your sources of cash are taxes, trade, and tribute. Normally, production is "1 for 1". One BC gives you one unit of military, social, or research. Bonuses allow you BOTH to spend more AND to get some "free" production. That's why increasing your bonus causes you to lose money. Your capacity increases, but your income stays the same. The bonus is worth it, because part of the bonus is "free". You can move down your overall spending level. You'll find a point where your net income is the same as before the bonus, but you're producing more.

Suppose you have a "base production" of 100 on a planet. You allocate 50% military, 25% social, 25% research. You are funding at 50%, so your base spending is 25 military, 12 social, 12 research (always round down). Now, add in the bonuses. If you have +20% military and social, with 10% free, your military is 29+5, your social is 13+1, for a total military spending of 29 and a social spending of 13. If you have +100% research, with 50% free, your research is 18+6. Your total spending is 29+13+18, and you're getting 29+13+18+5+1+6 BC worth of production.

Now suppose you went with 100% research, still funding at 50%, with the same bonuses. Your research is 75+25. You're spending 75BC for 100BC worth of research. Notice that you're spending more, even though all you did was reallocate your spending. That's because your base production buys more real production, when you choose to spend on research.

If this wasn't complicated enough, remember that military+social production is capped at 10x planet quality and the military+social bonus is capped at 3x planet quality. Taxes are capped at 4x planet quality. So, you can run into the perverse situation when getting a resource, wonder or social improvement provides no benefit. I consider this to be a design flaw in the game. To be fair, resources, wonders, trade goods, and social projects should increase the cap. Research does not appear to be capped in the way that military and social are capped. The caps exist because people were building 10 starbases in a sector for a ridiculously high bonus. As far as I can tell, this is the only part that was abusable.
Reply #6 Top
Oops... I posted this before I saw the reply from fsk+ above. Keep that in mind as you read what I wrote below. (Gotta love this editing feature. :) ) . . I think I can answer my own (foolish) question ;p ... Your sliders add up to the total production capacity for all endeavors in your empire. So when you set, say, military production to 50%, you're saying you want half of all production resources spent on military. That's why you're income changes as you move the sliders, because different endeavors (miliary, social, tech) don't all cost the same amount of money. Using half your empire's capacity for reasearch is a lot more expensive than using half of it for military construction.

Is that right?
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Reply #8 Top
FSK+ says
"if this wasn't complicated enough, remember that military+social production is capped at 10x planet quality and the military+social bonus is capped at 3x planet quality. Taxes are capped at 4x planet quality. So, you can run into the perverse situation when getting a resource, wonder or social improvement provides no benefit. I consider this to be a design flaw in the game. To be fair, resources, wonders, trade goods, and social projects should increase the cap. Research does not appear to be capped in the way that military and social are capped. The caps exist because people were building 10 starbases in a sector for a ridiculously high bonus. As far as I can tell, this is the only part that was abusable."

The above is great information. How on earth did you find it out?

Some questions on the above

I'm struggling with Starbase development. How many should I build per sector? At the moment I tend to build 5 or 6 fully maxed production bonus starbases in sectors with two or more colonies. Is this too many? Do I need to work out the PQ caps, then work out whether it is worth maxing out the starbases? I'd prefer not to build so many, as managing the upgrading is painful.

When you say that the military and social cap is 3x PQ, do you mean that with a PQ 20 planet, the cap is 60%? I can hit this with only a couple of starbases, much better!

Another question on starbase bonuses. Some of the mining bonuses state they apply to "nearby" planets, while other apply to the sector. Just how close is "nearby"? If a starbase is on the sector border does a "nearby" bonus affect a planet just across the border?

Any answers (or pointers to threads with answers) appreciated

Elliott
Reply #9 Top
Hi, good to see another player in Singapore.

There are alot of "hidden" info in the game still. Hopefully, the Galciv Manual Mark 2 is going to contain most of that. The forum is still the best place to find out more at this point in time.

I've not done the maths too but personally I find that 1 maxed out production starbase per sector with planetary improvements is sufficient for me to push out stuff rather quickly.

Mining modules for resources apply universally to all systems so distance does not matter. Rest of the modules would apply for the sector where the SBs is located (except for culture which has the ability to project to ajoining sectors).
Reply #10 Top
Ray says
"Hi, good to see another player in Singapore."

Yeah, I was going to reply to your comment about not seeing the game for sale in Singapore, as I've seen it available in Sim Lim. I actually paid for the download version, which ended up being about $80 Sing. I should have waited until it was available here :)

At least Stardock posted the physical game here with no additional charge. Very much appreciated guys.

Elliott

Reply #11 Top
I checked with Challenger 2 months back but they didn't have it. Not surprisingly though, considering the limited global distribution then.

When I read the website gameplay examples that Brad has still not beaten the AI at higher levels, my mastercard flew out of the wallet on its own. :D

Couldn't have waited another day to play the game partly also as I didn't buy Moo3 due to the v poor reviews.

Didn't regret it though. The additional S$30 for the two months of fun was well worth it for me.
Reply #12 Top
Ray, I just checked your profile. I'm very impressed, 4th in the Metaverse!

I've submitted a couple of results, but they don't seem to have ended up on my profile. If a get a good score I might do something about fixing that :)

Elliott
Reply #13 Top
Nothing to be impressed about - i spend too much time galciving :)

Have you registered on the Metaverse?
If not, follow this link http://www.galciv.com/playerreg.asp
Reply #14 Top
Thanks for all the useful info. Hmm... I had no idea about spending!
I think you should stick fsk's post (with the examples) in the library. From the game itself and the manual it is not very clear how spending works. This REALLY help explain it. thanks.
Reply #15 Top
Judging from

http://www.galciv.com/docs/undocs.html

Production caps are in absolute numbers, methinks, not percentile. e.g. PQ 31 => bonus production (capacity or used production?) above 3x31=93 is penalized; if memory serves, you get additional bonus production at the square root of what it normally would be. Penalties also apply if non-bonus production > 10xPQ.


I didn't notice anything about trade route boosting being capped, however, so there may still be some reason to base-spam. In addition, military bonuses appear to stack at least up to +72 attack/+6 def/+12 movement without penalties; I've never gone farther than that.
Reply #16 Top
Data about caps is right there AFAIK, but amounts of free/non-free production etc. is wrong.

~SDC~
Reply #17 Top
There is an article in the encyclopedia the explains the production caps. It's called "Economics in GalCiv". I also think that "How Sector Influence Works" is a good read. Go to the encyclopedia link on the top of this page.

The caps are not "hard". They are "soft". You can go beyond the cap; it just isn't worth any special effort.

How do I decide how many +production starbases to build in a system? Remember how people want a per-planet governor slider? I use my starbases to "focus" my production in a given sector. As long as your base (non-free) military+social is less than 10x planet quality, another production boost won't go to waste. It's much better to have 100 military on one planet than 20 military on 5 planets. You really need to be on at least a large map to be able to do this; otherwise you don't get enough constructors. The AI doesn't seem to use starbases well.
The optimal # of starbases depends on your racial abilities, wonders, and spending sliders.

Also remember that later in the game, you get more +production starbase modules available. I find that 2-3 maxed out production starbases gets me near the 10x planet quality cap. I don't worry about hitting the 3x planet quality cap, as that is "free" production, and you can go beyond the cap somewhat. If you have a great 30+ PQ planet in the same sector as some 15 PQ planets, you may be maxing out the 15 PQ planet but not the 30+ PQ planet. In that case, you can move population to the 30+ PQ planet or destroy your +production facilities on the 15 PQ planet. You really want to be maxing out your great PQ planets.