Tech Victory Scoring - The Ubernerf?

from Stardock Forums
Ack. The scoring nerf on tech victory is SEVERE. I had thought that tech was scoring so low because the games really drag out the extra turns on those last couple bits of research, and the game length was the reason for the low score, but no.

I just managed the most massive trading economy I've ever had, on a gigantic Maso map. I had 2k in local economy and over 5500bc income per turn from trade. With TECH SPENDING at 100%, backed by full research facilities and two fully mined research resource starbases, and the research trade goods, I WAS STILL RUNNING A SURPLUS. Late tree techs like Galactic Creation were learned in less than one year, and even Final Frontier only took about three. Surplus was over 2k per turn when spending 100% on social, and even more when spending on military (I played pacifists). Sped right along to tech victory some fifteen YEARS before my next best tech performance.

Score? A mere 22000? Come on. That's not appropriate. No wonder tech victories are the least reported, the least pursued. The tech win is the redheaded stepchild of the Metaverse. LOL

I reloaded from before I researched the last six or eight techs and spammed constructors to form terror stars, blew up the enemy systems in "alpha strike" fashion, after about three hours of managing all the logistics... finished only a few years earlier than the tech win, and blew past the scoring cap of 60k.

Maybe conquest SHOULD be worth more than research, but not that much more. I mean, heck, it was a stronger feat for me to manage such a trading empire and race to an extremely fast tech win than it was to spam constructors all over the place against enemies who do not respond to them as threats. Oh well.

At least the Alliance and Cultural victories score half decently. Tech, though... I won't be going for tech again when I have another viable option, unless I do so purely for variety's sake, scoring notwithstanding.

Why is the tech victory so strongly devalued? I don't understand.


- Sirian
490 views 19 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
The original idea was that since you get points for techs researched, the penalty for the tech victory is partially offset by the higher tech score.

I agree that the nerf is *way* overdone though.
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
Just a note of support for your observation, Sirian. In other similar games I've enjoyed the 'tech' victory (eg Transcending in Alpha Centauri) but the score multiplier is very harsh here; I understand it is military=1.0x and tech=0.5x. It really is design decisions forcing players who wish to score for their empires down an increasingly narrow focus, and I dont understand it either. I realise conquering EVERY planet personally rates as 'harder' than completing a tech tree, but sheesh.... :)
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Tech is definately overnerfed
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
Just add a boatload of mods so it takes a lot longer but by then I'm ready for another challenge.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Stardock needs to look at tech victory again now that Alien Tech Victory is on in 1.11. This would seem to defeat the 'Hide in a Corner' victory -- I think they should turn the nerf off and make Alien Tech Victory a normal condition.

I think Tech Victory is difficult. I'm only researched Final Fronter 2 or 3 times in thirty games. In most games, I don't have the economy to get to Final Frontier if I wanted to, so it's not like it's a give me. When I do have an economy strong enough to get to Final Frontier, I tend to culture flip the remaining planet way before I'd have time to research it. Given that the overall metaverse score seems to discount for time and there is already a population nerf, I don't see tech victory as easier -- in fact, it probably takes longer.

Sirian -- I was also disappointed by one tech victory (which I didn't submit, but rewon as a military victory.) It has by far the coolest cut-scene, but the score is a punishment if you want to compete the metaverse.

Cypher

~SDC~
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Stardock needs to look at tech victory again now that Alien Tech Victory is on in 1.11. This would seem to defeat the 'Hide in a Corner' victory -- I think they should turn the nerf off and make Alien Tech Victory a normal condition.

I think Tech Victory is difficult. I'm only researched Final Fronter 2 or 3 times in thirty games. In most games, I don't have the economy to get to Final Frontier if I wanted to, so it's not like it's a give me. When I do have an economy strong enough to get to Final Frontier, I tend to culture flip the remaining planet way before I'd have time to research it. Given that the overall metaverse score seems to discount for time and there is already a population nerf, I don't see tech victory as easier -- in fact, it probably takes longer.

Sirian -- I was also disappointed by one tech victory (which I didn't submit, but rewon as a military victory.) It has by far the coolest cut-scene, but the score is a punishment if you want to compete the metaverse.

Cypher

~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree. my tech victory was disappointing. And when I resubmitted the tech victory under the new patch, it did give me a higher Mpoints submission, but it didn't update the original score. Not to mention the endgame save is gone now, so it's moot for me on that. oh well.

Not going for tech victory anymore. I leave the option on, just as an out in case I end up in a military stalemate and am bored with the map. When not going for the tech win, there is a lot of tech you just don't need. BC better spent on dreads, frigates and combat transports.

IMO, tech victory is harder, because of the restraint you have to show. LOL
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
I leave the option on, just as an out in case I end up in a military stalemate and am bored with the map.
End of quote


Me too. I really enjoy the tech victory movie but havent seen it in a long time. A military victory is easier and faster than a tech win. the last time the AI had a tech win over me was in the os/2 version. Is that still possible now?

~SDC~
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
I have always maintained that no victory should get a different multiplier bonus for winning than any other.

Witness: A win where you got through all the tech's and held all but one planet should score about the same as one where you held all the planets but failed to get one tech. All other things being equal, Economy, wonders and the like (these two games should score about the same. They are functionally equivalent. The only thing you do differently is choose to culture flip that last planet (military win (culture win being turned off)) or choose to research the final tech. The game for 99.999% of the game was the same. The only difference being the chosen victory type. Why should one score half of the other in this case?

What about the hide in the corner tech win? This was mainly done by many when tech wins scored quite a bit higher than others. Well the scoring system should recognize the difference between a hide in a corner win and a dominating win WITHOUT nerfing the victory condition for that type of win. Because if you nerf one type, you run into the problem I outlined above.

In baseball, one of the things a catcher does is "package the pitch" ie subtly move the glove just a wee bit to make the pitch look better to the ump.

It's no different here. Players are "Packaging the win" for the metaverse.

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
Another way of looking at the problem is that the tech win is hurt twice. After the .5 multiplier was put in as a response to the "hide in a corner" strategy, they also put in a percentage of the universe factor. Personally, I think that second factor is more than enough to discourage the tactic, perhaps leaving the .5 multiplier for the case that an alien civ beats you to Final Frontier.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
bump -

I agree - over nerfed.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree that the scores for tech victory can be higher but I remember a Maso Gig game I played a few months back (the time where tech victories scored the highest) where I was on the verge of being crushed by the AIs. I built AMMs then switched eveything to tech. The AIs are simply not capable of taking out my planets fast enough to prevent me from teching to victory. It was an easy win from a supposedly dead-end situation.

Alternatively, one could trade for Beyond Human or Final Frontier from the AIs by offering up planets and get the tech win easily. The new Alien Tech win option would mitigate this but it's an option which could be switched off.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Alternatively, one could trade for Beyond Human or Final Frontier from the AIs by offering up planets and get the tech win easily. The new Alien Tech win option would mitigate this but it's an option which could be switched off.
End of quote


So the solution there would be to make the AI value those techs so much that they will not trade them for anything.
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
It was an easy win from a supposedly dead-end situation.
End of quote


I think this is still an acceptable deal.
I just got a tech win on maso. It's worth 13k. If instead of a tech win I go for alliance, I get 30k.
This means noone in theri right mind will post a tech win if they want to compete on the metaverse. (Well,I will probably post the tech one, though...).
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I feel something's wrong with the victory condition scoring as it is stated by Frogboy that the multipliers to the base victory score for the conditions are Military x10, Alliance x9, Cultural x8 and Tech x7.

Using your data above, the base score according to the tech win score is (13k divided by 7) about 1.9k. Using your alliance win score, your base score gives a number of (30k divided by 9) 3.3k. The base scores do not tally.

Assuming the base score for the alliance victory is correct, your tech win should give you 3.3k x 7 = 23k overall score - much more reasonable.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
I know the figures are totally out of sync with Brad's specs. That's why I posted them, too. I checked them twice to be sure I hadn't misread. My 5-year-old daughter even had me read each and every single figure on the summary screen!
Now there might be a penalty for actally researching final frontier in too much time? Or the tech I researched in one turn instead of final frontier produced a huge boost to the alliance scoring? I should retry by putting spendings to 0% or everything into military (but then I'd be making more money so it could change the econ part of the score).
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
Alternatively, one could trade for Beyond Human or Final Frontier from the AIs by offering up planets and get the tech win easily. The new Alien Tech win option would mitigate this but it's an option which could be switched off.
End of quote


It's true that this is an easy way to win if the Alien Tech condition is unchecked, but I see no reason why the score shouldn't be penalized if you weren't the first to Final Frontier. Tech wins are simply not significantly easier than military wins if you must be the first to get to Final Frontier.
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
I find anything other than a military victory is boring.
So I don't care if a Tech victory is nerfed.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
I find anything other than a military victory is boring.
End of quote

And I find military victories boring. The "Well, I control 90% of the galaxy, am sure to win, but still have 5 star systems to conquer - can't bother" syndrome.
I don't really care about the score though, but Stardock should, as right now almost everyone seems to be turning off the alternate win conditions.