macraig macraig

I've seen enough

▼

I've seen enough

from Stardock Forums
Those of you complaining about not being able to order online should
consider yourselves blessed and leave it at that: the game isn't worth it.
The basic architecture of the game leaves so much to be desired,
particularly in its lack of scalability and macromanagement, that it would
be a waste of my time and insight to pelt the authors with suggestions; any
significant improvements would require a major rewrite to facilitate. I
refer you to the game's starbase paradigm as an example of both the best and
worst that this game has to offer; the concept was excellent but the
implementation results in micromanagement Hell. The same is true of most of
the game's interface; it almost completely lacks scalability.

For those of you who don't grok "scalability", start a game on the largest
map possible, colonize many dozens of planets and try to coordinate the
production and movement of hundreds of ships, and watch the "fun" begin
after one or two hundred turns. If I really wanted that kind of torture
there are plenty of old TBS board games in my closet - say, Fifth Frontier
War or even Stellar Conquest, to which this game owes its roots - that would
do the trick nicely. The advantage that a computer is SUPPOSED to bring to
strategy gaming is the avoidance of such drudgery and repetition, NOT the
ability to create ever greater amounts of it. I see none of that advantage
displayed in this game.

The alleged rave reviews this game has received actually says more about the
paucity of TBS games and the lack of experience and insight of gaming
industry reviewers than it does about GalCiv the game. The fact that its
competition, notably Master of Orion 3, is also very poorly imagined or
implemented is hardly a resounding recommendation for GalCiv. I may vote
the lesser of several evils in Presidential elections, but I'll be damned if
I'll make the same sort of choice in gaming any more. I'd rather do without
a TBS game entirely than subject myself to more of the self-immolation this
game represents. I've already uninstalled the game and modding tools, and
Stardock Central is next; I'd formally ask for a refund if I thought there
was a chance Stardock or Strategy First might be that honorable about it.

This is one veteran gamer who won't be recommending Galactic Civilizations
to anyone.

Mark Craig


~SDC~
1,438 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top
Bud light presents Real men of Genius."Reeeeal men of geeeeeniouuuus!" Today we salute YOU, Mr. Really Mad Internet Gamer "Mr. Really mad internet gamer."Only YOU can fully appreciate the mind-blowing tragedy of an unplayable game when in fact several hundreds have played it. "
End of quote


Maybe he's just "trying to steal our High Life". ;)

Elrikk


~SDC~
Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top
Captain Jack Sparrow, :lol: :CONGRAT: Fantastic post!

macraig (Mark Craig): He's just pissed of that is personal life sucks so much, that his one hope of escape from it, entertainment from a game, just aggravated him. Or, as a 20+ year player of TBS games, he'd let his understanding of computer 4x games guide him, and not try to play the biggest the game offered.

His complaints about other games "scaling" is a total red herhing. In MMORPGs, the scalability is having hundreds and thousands of people on the same server at the same time. All the MMORPGS complain about the computer still being dumber then rocks when it's the computer's turn. There's a few shared world games where the computer is given credit for being "very smart", but that's because their world is "highly simplified".

Why is micromanagement a problem in TBS 4x games? Because there's only one brain on your side. Most TBS game players wouldn't let the computer do its thing for them in their games... because they can do a more efficent job for their playstyle/strategy then can the computer. Go check out MoO3... many of the complaints with it, where it tries to do everything for you automatically (except make fleets and send them out) is the constant fighting with the helper AI to get things done like you want. Huge, huge, huge, pain in the butt. Adds to a player's micro-management work, rather then simplifies it. In those cases, players would rather have no help, then bad help.

Now, in SMAC (Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, a SF Civ game), you could actually let the AI do everything for you but the politics. Seriously. This allowed you to play a game of "Speed SMAC" in just an hour, from start to end. Your helper AIs would even fight youre wars. Is that the sort of game our mad troll wants? Then let him go play it.

4x games will never scale "well", so long as there are no suitable "agents" in such games. And it will be longer then 50 years before we see such in games for a simple reason... each game has it's own rules, and it would require more money and time then a game company can spend to develop a helping AI "agent" then they have to develop the entire game. If mr. mad troll wants to correct that, he needs to get out there and make his own 4x game with its own agents to help manage the game. There's plenty of free computer programming languages, documentation, courses, and even code base. All free. Just takes his time and some effort.

Does that mean GC couldn't be improved? Certainly not. But complaining about the nature of the 4x TBS game and blaming GC for the fact that they haven't "overcome" the problem of scale is not being reasonable for someone with over 25 years of computer gaming experience, 20 of which are exclusively TBS games.

And Star Dock has given refunds, mr. mad troll. Unlike you, they are a class act all the time.

This flamer deserves nothing but our ridicule. Everyone point and laugh. He is showing that all he wants is a flame war (what with coming to the community and trolling it). That's his entertainment, and his revenge on life.

I wasn't going to bother replying, but I'm waiting on the clock to tick off the final few minutes to quitting time at work. So what the heck? ;)

Personally, I'm disappointed in mr mad troll. After all the years of trolling built up on the internet, he should have been able to come up with a better troll of the internet heart and home of GC. Tsk tsk tsk. We would ask for a refund, but you know how cheesy those troll makers are. They go out of business as soon as they set up shop. But one day, one of them is bound to make a really funny troll. :)

[Message Edited]
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top
Star Pilot,
no one deserves our ridicule. I think you are being far too critical of macraig. So he finds the game has far to much micro-management for him on gigantic. But he still wants to play gigantic. I can see where he is coming from. The one game that balanced this well was the original master of orion. Here micromanagement never became a problem, because simplicity was key.

Unfortunately for macraig the very complexities that players now want make simplicity very hard to achieve. I personally feel that Galciv makes excellent progress in reducing micro management and is a fun game to play. There is more that could be done though and maybe Galciv 2 will improve in these areas. Reduction of constructor tedium would be one example. Planetary sliders to remove the problem of wasted resources and micromanagement to ensure no wasted resource is another.

In the meantime we need to be a bit more friendly and supportive towards people who don't get the fun and enjoyment the rest of us do from this game. Macraig went out and spent his money buying this game and deserves respect from us. I hope he gives it another chance and is willing to play other settings where micro management won't upset him but it's his choice.

Paul.

~SDC~
Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top
Solitar, I disagree with you on almost all your points.

#1) He started off insulting Star Dock. He didn't give them any respect. Star Dock is a class act. They've refunded people their money. Maybe MacTroll bought his game from a local business that don't take software refunds. But that was no reason for him to go tossing crap at Star Dock... not without first asking them for a refund.

#2) His statement of "I'm an experienced computer gamer of 25 years, 20 exclusively in TBS computer games" was meant to invoke "authority", making his opinion more valuable then everyone elses. Again, this shows no respect for the people here. He doesn't care, other then to get people mad. That's #3) He just wants to play with the Community.

#3) Troll - He is intentionally trolling the forum for his own entertainment. That's a total disrespect of other people. You are merely an object for his amusement.

That's 3 items of no respect given, off the top, Solitare. I know the golden rule is to treat others as you would be treated. I'd expect people to frag me off if I go into their community and troll them like that. He isn't claiming to be some 16 year old, disappointed in spending all his hard earned money from cutting lawns or hoeing a garden on Star Dock's GalCiv and finding it unenjoyable. This is all about him, not us, and not the game.

Additionally...
#4) Blaming Star Dock for the game not being what he wants in his ultimate strategy game - total loser on his part. He got what he paid for... It's not like other games of that price do any better. Beating on Star Dock for being standard is just pathetic in someone that claims to have a large experience base with these sorts of games. There's only 3 games I've seen claimed to have over come the "micro-managementis", and those are: Outpost (didn't even include the agents that were supposed to do it), SMAC (which does such a poor job, no player that wants to play well uses it), and MoO3 (which has been discussed in length on this forum, and others, in how it failed and merely added to the player's micro-management tasks).

If MacTroll had paid respect to the forum, while point out how he found GalCiv to be a disappointed, then I'd agree with you. He didn't. This thread isn't about constructive critism which may one day help in some small fashion toward making a better TBS game. It's all about MacTroll getting his jollies by pissing off people here.

Take it from an old troll... give him nothing. If you insist on be generous, point and laugh.
[Message Edited]
Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
Sorry Star pilot but I do not agree.

He posted a single article. yes he was angry. yes he was un-diplomatic. But he told us WHY he was unhappy. That's not trolling. That's an unhappy customer.

It doesn't matter why he's unhappy, or that we all disagree with him as to how valid his complaint are. I still believe that he deserves a right to air his complaint and have them discussed without treating him with contempt. It's not even a new complaint. Look at the current way points and fleets. They were added because others complained about micromanagement. Many people have highlighted that constructor management gets very tedious . Stardock already know this and may possibly make changes to this in Galciv 2.

At the end of the day it's Stardock's decision on balancing the game, versus the appeal, versus the financial commitment required, versus the fun factor. They have done an excellent job. Lets not alienate potential customers by being impolite and rude to others on their forums. No matter what the justification.

Paul.

~SDC~
Reply #32 from Stardock Forums Top
Some points addressed in the first post still hold.
The game requires lots of micromanagement on the biggest settings, and things like waypoints didn't really helped in my opinion.

It doesn't have to be this way, and I know exactly what game mechanisms need to exist to eliminate the problem. (...) I've never developed a game from scratch, (...). I've been playing strategy games for over twenty-five years and 4X games almost exclusively for nearly twenty, so I have a few insights.
End of quote

If you know the mechanisms needed, do say which ones are those you think are needed. What? IFPs? The scratching of IFPs was what made me not buy MOO3. Had the game sucked with IFPs, I would at least have had an idea of whether IFPs sucked or not.
About developping a game from scratch, well, I do, so I'm interested in hearing any solution to micromanagement, and the insights of all the people developping games of that kind don't seem to provide an efficient solution, so if you really have a good idea, tell us HOW instead of saying you know what to do but never will. "La critique est aisee, l'art est difficile".
I agree that big maps require micromanagement, and find them boring myself. I still enjoy the game on up to large maps, so the scaling issue is not a show stopper for me.
SLW: Don't post in it if you want it to die ;). The point of micromanagement on bigger maps exists. If someone has an idea of a solution for this, even if it requires major rewritings, I'd like to hear it.
Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top
If someone has an idea of a solution for this
End of quote


Multiple governors solves a lot of this....

Alex


~SDC~
Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top
Solitar, that's fine. We will agree to disagree. :)

If you want to have your criticisms taken seriously, its best to respect other people. Otherwise it's just venting.

Now, as a customer of Star Dock, he certainly has the right to come here and vent about his frustrations he encountered while playing GalCiv. No question about that.

As a community member here, I have the right to tell him take his nasty trolling elsewhere. He vented, we are responding as we choose. The advice on all accounts is free, so we know what it's worth is. ;)

Again, as others have also pointed out, he isn't supplying any info on how to improve the game. He's just venting his frustration at it not being the perfect TBS game he desires. Note that: Not that he's venting about anything constructively.

If he'd suggested ways to actually improve GC, I wouldn't advice everyone to point and laugh at him. I'd just have said that Star Dock has given refunds in the past, and if he wants one to contact them about seeing what it would take for them to do so for him. Maybe I'd comment on something that he'd suggested.

Still, if people want to talk about reducing micro-management, I'm all for it. GC1 is set in its design, but I understand GC2 may benefit from the suggestion of a few good ideas. (I, of course, could be wrong, but we haven't heard different.)
[Message Edited]
Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top
Today, gaming science understands
That some folks aren't pleased by our grandiose plans.
In cases of acute vexation,
And difficulty in verb conjugation,
Developers are now prescribing... medicine.
It makes those who feel they're about to quit,
Feel like they're ready to begin.
Bidding their trolling penchant goodbye,
As the patrolling Drengin serenaders
shoot down your harmless freighters
In the vast abyssal sky.

[Message Edited]
Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top
I dont mean to ressurect a dead thread but Mr. Sparrow that was probably the witiest come back I have ever heard, my hats off to you and you should really pitch that idea to some one, who knows maybe it could become the next internet in joke.