What Makes a Woman Beautiful?

from JoeUser Forums
What makes a woman beautiful?

Is it shiny blonde locks that tumble gracefully down her back?

Is it perfectly groomed brows with arches that peak just above the iris?

Is it wide, sparkling eyes framed by thick, dark lashes?

Full, pouty lips?

High cheekbones?

Large, taut breasts that sit high on her chest?

A tiny, trim waste punctuated by tight, defined abs and a perfectly formed navel?

Slim hips that slightly contrast the waist but allow for a clear view of two angular bones at either side?

A smooth, round and full butt?

Long, slender arms with a bit of muscle definition?

Tight, thin thighs and golden tan legs that go on and on?

Must a woman possess these traits to be beautiful? Are Jessica Alba and Angelina Jolie and Pamela Anderson the only possible formulas for female beauty?

I've read that physical beauty is subconsciously determined by symmetry, but I don't really buy that. Beauty standards seem to change with time and culture. I believe that the media, that Hollywood, that magazines and tv shows and movies and porn dictate to us what we find attractive.

We are a shallow culture.

Our men are shallow.

The saying goes that inner beauty shines through and makes someone beautiful or vice versa, but it seems to me that inner beauty counts little when it comes to many men. Inner beauty is not some magical pixie dust or some neon sign that blinks "sweet, funny girl" or "unbelievable bitch" on and off in order to aid the male species in dating.

Guess how you discover inner beauty?

You get to know someone.

You talk to her and hear her thoughts on PETA and the new Mustang and Aerosmith and abortion and Chinese food. You watch the way her eyes light up and she becomes animated and passionate when she talks about something she loves (this does not include herself). You spend enough time with her to realize that she has a way about her that puts you at ease. You admire the way her nose crinkles when she laughs because she shares your warped sense of humor. You watch her do something she's great at...the way she sweetly and calmly deals with an irate customer, the flurry of activity she engages in when she's under deadline, the tender way she puts her child to bed...and you admire her unique abilities. You discover that her mind is just as dirty as yours.

It goes on and on.

When a man sees a hot girl in a tiny little bikini with a beautiful smile and huge knockers strolling down the beach, he is NOT seeing inner beauty. His attraction is PHYSICAL. He is attracted to her because all his life he's been taught that she is beautiful.

The single mom in the one piece with the crooked teeth and manly legs digging a moat around her kid's sand castle? He's not going to give her the time of day. He'll never know if she's beautiful or not. She might be creepy beyond belief (just like the bikini babe might be, but he'd be willing to deal with creepy in order to sleep with her and have her on his arm in public), but it's just as likely that she's fun as hell to be around, considerate and kind, and incredibly talented in the sack.

But he'll never know.

Inner beauty isn't tits. Inner beauty isn't a tight pair of size 2 jeans. Inner beauty isn't sparkling eyes.

We are so hung up on a very rigid standard of beauty...and so obsessive in our search for it...that we dupe ourselves into believing that outward physical "perfection"...that our purely shallow attraction to someone...is an indication that they have inner beauty.

Maybe this is just the rant of an ugly girl. Maybe I'm just jealous because a bit of pudge rests over the waist of my jeans when I sit down. Maybe I'm jealous because my lips are too thin or because my breasts don't sit directly beneath my collar bones.

This is possible.

But I am raising young boys, and I think about this a lot, and what I see is a culture of ravenous, shallow men who rely on Maxim magazine and Spike TV to tell them who is worthy of their time. I see a culture of men who truly believe that lust is love. I see a culture of men who are scared of real women and who would rather have sex with themselves than get to know a woman who isn't Playboy-approved.

This isn't likely to change anytime soon...so until then we women will keep up with the crunches and the salad lunches and the implants and the highlights and collagen injections in hopes that we'll warrant a second glance.

Sad.

Physical beauty fades...remember this, men.
6,486 views 31 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thank you. I couldn't agree more... yet I have fallen into this trap. I just began my new exercise regimin to slim down, tone up and all that jazz. I can tell people it's "because I want to be healthy" and "my doctor said exercise five times a week, or have a heart attack by age 35" (which is true... my bad cholesterol isn't bad, but the good cholesterol is waaaayyy too low)

But the truth is, I want to look and feel pretty. I've tweezed my eyebrows to the perfect arch... to the point where people complement my eyebrows. (really, they do) I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on makeup, skin care, hair dye and long lasting lipsticks. But, I'm still single with no plans for a Friday night. All my brains, LotR obbsessions, singing ability and love of playing outdoors hasn't landed me the right man... so I'll be lifting weights and doing cardio until I feel better about me.

If this isn't featured, I won't know why. Great article Tex. You put things so well.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
SHE:
I couldn't agree more... yet I have fallen into this trap. I just began my new exercise regimin to slim down, tone up and all that jazz. I can tell people it's "because I want to be healthy" and "my doctor said exercise five times a week, or have a heart attack by age 35"


It's hard not to...it's very difficult to fight the strong messages we're sent about attractiveness...how important physical beauty is as well as what, exactly, physical beauty is. We play the game.

I've tweezed my eyebrows to the perfect arch... to the point where people complement my eyebrows. (really, they do)


I believe it. Hehe.

I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on makeup, skin care, hair dye and long lasting lipsticks. But, I'm still single with no plans for a Friday night. All my brains, LotR obbsessions, singing ability and love of playing outdoors hasn't landed me the right man... so I'll be lifting weights and doing cardio until I feel better about me.


Exactly. If they realized how much fun you'd be to hang out with and how you could engage them for hours on end in conversation that they could actually enjoy...if they knew all the special and wonderful things about you, they'd never be able to let you go...but so long as you don't have a 23 inch waist and bulging breasts, many guys will never know this about you. (Btw, I've seen your pic, and I personally think you're a complete knock-out).

But what can you do? You (and I) want to be pretty, so we'll keep feeding the beast, doing whatever we can to make ourselves look more like Jessica Simpson or Angelina Jolie. It's discouraging at best...

If this isn't featured, I won't know why. Great article Tex. You put things so well.


Thank you so, so, much for that.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I know what you mean, Tex.

Back in high school, I fell into this way of thinking. I thought "I don't have the clothes which flatter my body, sleek, thick hair and a perfect smile." I thought myself to be inferior to the other girls. Then, I dated a guy who reinforced those images you wrote about. It made feel even worse.

There was a guy I knew of in high school who wouldn't speak to girls unless they were super pretty/model-like. I didn't quite believe it. So one day (through a friend's e-mail), I found his AIM and started a conversation with him. It was all going fine until he asked who I was. IWhen he did, he ended the conversation. I couldn't even look at him in class anymore.

Ultimately, it comes down the woman herself saying "those images are bull" and rejecting them outright.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Beautifully written article, Tex. What is defined these days as physical beauty is a grotesque macabre for the real woman.

How are you going to be able to hold a conversation with that vapid,perk-titted, size two woman 25 years later? Probably not as well as you would with the size 10 woman who speaks her mind.

Beauty is found in brains.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Btw, I've seen your pic, and I personally think you're a complete knock-out).


Awww. I'm blushing and saying you're full of it, but still blushing.

Then, I dated a guy who reinforced those images you wrote about. It made feel even worse.


Ouch. I know the feeling. I dated a guy who didn't like the person I had become, and because I though I loved him, I had a real battle trying to reconcil what he wanted with what I was. He dumped me for not being easy enough, and went after this supper skinny chick rumored to be a slut (I say rumored because I have no proof) so there went my self image.

Ultimately, it comes down the woman herself saying "those images are bull" and rejecting them outright.


Easier said than done, but good advice none the less.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm guilty as charged... i'm a sucker for a beautiful woman, like so many other men.

but...

I'm a fan of natural beauty. or maybe i'm just rationalizing here. I dig women who can get ready in 15 minutes. The ones that don't have to wear a lb. of make-up to be pretty. The ones that don't get their hair frosted, their lips injected, and their tits implanted. The ones who are secure in who they are, and don't feel like they have to conform to the standards that Cosmo and Maxim set forth for them.

So does that make me a bad person? am I so shallow? where do you draw the line between taking pride in your appearance and being some creation made of make-up and silicon?

your article starts out w/ a series of questions about what makes a woman beautiful... I'll let you in on a little secret and hopefully the other male JUsers will back me up on this... we men don't notice each detail... the details are for you to worry about if you feel it necesary. We notice the overall package, or at least I do. without looking at a picture of my current flame, I couldn't tell you what shape her eyebrows are, or whether her lips are full and pouty... i just know that there's a certain chemical reaction in my brain when i look at her. I know that i was physically attracted to her from the first moment i laid eyes on her. That she is attracted to me in a similar way is almost too much for me to bear at times.

As you so daftly pointed out, finding out how beautiful a woman is involves talking to her. In the last 6 weeks, i've spent more time on the phone talking to Michelle than I've spent with her in person, because i only get to see her on weekends. So I guess that means i can see her inner beauty then...

See, that part about the single mom not getting a man's attention, you're right and wrong. There are men who are not hung up on looks, they can see a woman's inner beauty and see them for who they really are. And God love them for that. But that's not me. I want the whole package. I want a woman that excites my mind as well as my loins. (if i can borrow that line)... beauty fades, you're absolutely right, but I've seen couples that have taken care of themselves over the years. They're 'middle-aged', and yet with a healthy diet and regular exercise, they've managed to stay in good physical shape. Notice, I did not say "with the help of plastic surgery and liposuction."

basically what I'm trying to say is that there are those of us out there who have no interest in chasing women who take no pride in their appearance. At the same time, I have no interest in dating a supermodel either. I just want the plain Jane, the girl next door. The one that's somewhere in between, and yet she's committed herself to a lifestyle that's going to keep her fit and healthy for years to come.

I'm talking about a happy medium.

and we've all seen your pictures TW... you're a very beautiful woman, so forgive me for saying this, but you lose some of your credibility in trying to pick up the flag and crusade for the women who were not blessed in the looks department. You also told us once that your relationship w/ Adrian was founded on rampant lust (or something along those lines)... so I would venture so far as to say that physical attraction at the beginning of your relationship w/ your husband was an important aspect... I would even venture to guess that you're still turned on by him after all these years. That's not to say that you would love him any less if all his hair fell out and he gained 70 lbs, but c'mon Tex... given the choice between an overweight slob who takes no pride in his appearance and a physically fit soldier that fills out his uniform just right, which one would you prefer?

The point I want to make to you and anyone who reads my stupid rant is this: There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance and wanting to look good! it's only when we take it to extremes and buy into the hype that it becomes a problem! In true American style, we take a good thing and overdo it, hence the botox, the tanning beds, and hell, even the steroids.

and i'm so going to shut up now before my comment exceeds the length of your original article.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

You need to write this bit down as a poem and leave it as is (I edited it a bit to put it in form).  It's really a great point on its own, isn't it?:

I see a culture of men who are scared of real women-
Who would rather have sex with themselves than get to know a woman
who isn't Playboy-approved

This isn't likely to change anytime soon

So, until then, we women will keep up with the crunches and the salad lunches
The implants and the highlights and collagen injections
In hopes that we'll warrant a second glance

Sad

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Interesting article.

I have thought about these things, actually...what makes a woman attractive. My wife, I am so incredibly attracted to her....but she does not "fit" in pretty much all of those descriptions listed. But, good God, when she walks into the room....

Would I be lying, though, if i said that I am not "into" all the other things you listed? Sure, I know I would be lying. But, to me....those things are just good to look at and go, "wow".

Great example of what I am trying to say is this. When I used to really watch lots of porn, Jeanna Fine was one of the more popular stars in that industry. Now, to me....she was possibly THE sexiest woman I have personally ever seen. Sure, her breasts were fake....but they still looked great. To me, she was the perfect woman, sexually speaking. BUT....I never really thought of her as beautiful....or even really pretty. But, damn, did I ever think she was HOTT!!!, and still do today. But, she was not "pretty"....she was not "beautiful".....especially NOT in the same way as I find my wife to be.

Now, I personally think my wife is knock-out gorgeous....is that "truth in reality"? In my reality, it is....Would I like her to lose some weight, and be "sexy" (well, how about "sexier")? Sure....I am a red-blooded male....but, I am not going to leave her or anything if she doesn't.

To me....sexy and beautiful are two completely DIFFERENT things....They can go hand-in-hand....BUT, I think for a woman (i.e. my wife), to be beautiful AND sexy...well, perhaps it is all in the "eyes of the beholder". Well....but then again, there does seem to be plenty of guys trying to ask my wife out (she works at the local McDonalds)....so, who knows?
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Women are fucking shallow, too, Brandie, you have to admit.

A lot of girls like muscle guys with big cars and fat wallets. And don't tell me that all those jocks that were fucking the pretty girls in high school got those girls because they were pretty boys "on the inside."

Dunno. I like pretty girls. But I don't think I'm shallow. I see the point of this article, but I think you're missing the bigger picture: most human beings are shallow idiots. I mean, you read this site, it should be painfully obvious.

Personally, I like a woman to have a decent grasp of grammar. I can overlook a bit of an overbite and some stretch marks for that.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Myrrander....I agree.

my sisters and my sister-in-law are prime examples of this.

My youngest sister met this "bad boy" (well, he was dealing and doing drugs, partying, cheating on her, ect). She ends up pregnant. Fast-forward nearly 2 years. He is in jail, and she starts visiting him in jail. He promises her the world...he has changed....he is not the same person he used to be. Fast-forward to his release. They move in together, rent an apartment...an apartment he picked out. While she is working, he is sleeping with another girl across the street....yeah, he knew she lived there when they moved in...and yeah, that is the reason he wanted to move there (sex with another girl, and have a different girl pay for it). Even after all of this, she was still enamored with his "bad boy" image, that she was still wanting to be with him....

My sister-in-law....meets some scum (drugs, booze, and cheating on her with every woman that would sleep with him).She gets pregnant....he promises her the world....until she starts putting on weight due to there is a baby growing inside her. He drops her like a bad habit. She has the baby, she loses all her weight...can fit in thos tight jeans and little shirts....he comes back, and for just a little while, she falls for the "bad boy" again. Until she learns AGAIN that he is cheating on her. So, what does she do? She falls for another loser "bad boy"....her baby's daddy's brother....the same guy the little brother learned from. Needless to say, she was screwed in that relationship also (quite literally...).

Why do women waste their time with guys like that? I will never understand....I will never understand how a woman would fall for a guy that treats her like a prostitute, demanding God knows what....all the while, hopped up on drugs, stoned out on alcohol.....and why would she just keep falling in line, taking him back....

I know why....from all 3 of them (and countless others I have spoken to)...."they are just so cute....look at his butt....he is just so hot!!! tee hee...."
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well...not all folks who use drugs are bad. tee-hee

but I see what you're saying

My main point is: most humans are dolts and are wonderful arguments for eugenics.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well if you give me the time of day and you're not a totally psycho then you're beautiful in my book....I find good taste in men very attractive
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Your 100% correct,Tex. But I plead guilty and ask for mercy. There is, after all, a few billion years of evolution saying I gotta dig the T & A...
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dusk:
There was a guy I knew of in high school who wouldn't speak to girls unless they were super pretty/model-like. I didn't quite believe it. So one day (through a friend's e-mail), I found his AIM and started a conversation with him. It was all going fine until he asked who I was. IWhen he did, he ended the conversation. I couldn't even look at him in class anymore.


Wow. What a bastard. That's hard to wrap my head around. Geez.

Ultimately, it comes down the woman herself saying "those images are bull" and rejecting them outright.


I agree...so hard to do, though. As much as I want a daughter, in some ways I am grateful that I am not having to try to teach a young girl about all this junk. I can't imagine the pressure that mothers of daughters have.

Alison:
Beautifully written article, Tex.


Thank you.

What is defined these days as physical beauty is a grotesque macabre for the real woman.

Very well put.

How are you going to be able to hold a conversation with that vapid,perk-titted, size two woman 25 years later? Probably not as well as you would with the size 10 woman who speaks her mind.

Beauty is found in brains.


Absolutely. While I do believe that physical attraction is an important element in a relationship, I think that physical attraction is being manipulated by these insane societal standards, and that's really sad.

SHE:
Awww. I'm blushing and saying you're full of it, but still blushing.


It's hard to believe it when people say it, isn't it? I go through that all the time. But I'm not flattering you. I am quite envious.

Ouch. I know the feeling. I dated a guy who didn't like the person I had become, and because I though I loved him, I had a real battle trying to reconcil what he wanted with what I was. He dumped me for not being easy enough, and went after this supper skinny chick rumored to be a slut (I say rumored because I have no proof) so there went my self image.


I have experienced that kind of thing myself. And it's hard to manage your self-esteem when you are sent such a powerful message. It's hell.

Easier said than done, but good advice none the less.


Yep, I agree.

imajinit:
So does that make me a bad person? am I so shallow? where do you draw the line between taking pride in your appearance and being some creation made of make-up and silicon?


I think that's the big question that most women struggle with...at what point does it go from "looking your best" to feeding the beast of unrealistic and completely shallow beauty standards? I don't know. I struggle with that.

your article starts out w/ a series of questions about what makes a woman beautiful... I'll let you in on a little secret and hopefully the other male JUsers will back me up on this... we men don't notice each detail... the details are for you to worry about if you feel it necesary. We notice the overall package, or at least I do.


I read somewhere that the first thing men notice is smile, followed by figure, then hair. I don't know if this is true, but it would fall closely in line with what you've said...a general overview of a person rather than meticulous study of details. However, it's the details that make the entire package. If these things are not important to "beauty," then why do men's magazines and movies and everything else in the frickin world only feature women who line up with all these details?

As you so daftly pointed out, finding out how beautiful a woman is involves talking to her. In the last 6 weeks, i've spent more time on the phone talking to Michelle than I've spent with her in person, because i only get to see her on weekends. So I guess that means i can see her inner beauty then...


I hope you aren't thinking that I am directing this article at you. I mean no offense. This is something I think about a lot, and while your article got the wheels to spinning once again, this article is certainly not a jab at you. I've no right or place to criticize your relationship or what you feel for your girlfriend. If you are happy and feel that she is a great match for you, then that's all that matters, and I wouldn't dare question that.

See, that part about the single mom not getting a man's attention, you're right and wrong. There are men who are not hung up on looks, they can see a woman's inner beauty and see them for who they really are. And God love them for that. But that's not me. I want the whole package. I want a woman that excites my mind as well as my loins. (if i can borrow that line)... beauty fades, you're absolutely right, but I've seen couples that have taken care of themselves over the years. They're 'middle-aged', and yet with a healthy diet and regular exercise, they've managed to stay in good physical shape. Notice, I did not say "with the help of plastic surgery and liposuction."


This type of attitude...these lofty expectations...frustrate me. If all men thought like this, where would we non-Maxim women be? And it seems that this attitude is more and more prevalent. I really hope that I can teach my boys better than this.

basically what I'm trying to say is that there are those of us out there who have no interest in chasing women who take no pride in their appearance.


Yes, but what equates pride in appearance? How much work and attention must be paid to one's physical appearance in order to attract a man?

It seems that you, like many men, want a woman that is naturally a knock-out...easy going, low maintenance, perfect body, charm, all the works...you say you don't desire a woman that goes to extremes for her appearance, but you don't know what it takes for a woman to look like the adorable, plain jane girl-next-door.

Does pride in appearance mean that a woman must diet and work out constantly so that she can wear a size six? Does pride in appearance mean that a woman must forgo sweats and a pony tail for jeans and a tight top and full hair and make up to walk the dog or lounge around the house for a movie day? Can her nails be short and unpolished? Can she be 10, 20, 30 pounds overweight? Can she have crooked teeth? Can she wear her glasses instead of contacts? Can she wear something comfortable?

As you said before, where do we draw the line? How much of our already maxed-out attention must be devoted to superficial things?

I'm talking about a happy medium.


Possibly you are...and if you've found that woman that's a happy medium, good for you. Just know that most of us have to work very hard for that girl-next-door thing that men seem to think is ever so natural.

and we've all seen your pictures TW... you're a very beautiful woman, so forgive me for saying this, but you lose some of your credibility in trying to pick up the flag and crusade for the women who were not blessed in the looks department.


I thank you for that, it's a very flattering comment, but in reality, I am of average looks, if that. But even if I were beautiful, I don't see how that would hinder my ability to speak out about this.

You also told us once that your relationship w/ Adrian was founded on rampant lust (or something along those lines)... so I would venture so far as to say that physical attraction at the beginning of your relationship w/ your husband was an important aspect... I would even venture to guess that you're still turned on by him after all these years.


You definitely have me there. But I don't think Adrian and I have a relationship that anyone should emulate. We were teenagers when we met and still teenagers when we married, and there have been plenty of ramifications because of this.

I do believe that physical attraction is important. I really do. But I think that what, exactly, is physically attractive has been dictated to us by the society we live in. And I think that's incredibly messed up.

That's not to say that you would love him any less if all his hair fell out and he gained 70 lbs, but c'mon Tex... given the choice between an overweight slob who takes no pride in his appearance and a physically fit soldier that fills out his uniform just right, which one would you prefer?


I am very happy with his appearance, this is true. But believe it or not, I am not so hung up on that. Who he is makes me happy, and that affects the way I see him. I've been with him long enough to see him in many different states and with varying appearances, and it has never affected my feelings of attraction to him.

The point I want to make to you and anyone who reads my stupid rant is this: There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance and wanting to look good! it's only when we take it to extremes and buy into the hype that it becomes a problem! In true American style, we take a good thing and overdo it, hence the botox, the tanning beds, and hell, even the steroids.

and i'm so going to shut up now before my comment exceeds the length of your original article.


I really do appreciate your comments. It's been very interesting reading them and thinking about them. And while it may seem that I am hypocritical in my thoughts on this, it's really more about me being at war with myself...trying to put the puzzle together...to reconcile what I believe with what is necessary in today's world. It's very confusing to be a woman.

Karma:
You need to write this bit down as a poem and leave it as is (I edited it a bit to put it in form). It's really a great point on its own, isn't it?:


Very cool. I never would have noticed that. Thanks!

Mino:
My wife, I am so incredibly attracted to her....but she does not "fit" in pretty much all of those descriptions listed. But, good God, when she walks into the room....


I like hearing that...because to me that shows that you see her for more than just her appearance...that her appearance is enhanced by the beautiful woman that she is inside...and you see that.

To me, she was the perfect woman, sexually speaking. BUT....I never really thought of her as beautiful....or even really pretty. But, damn, did I ever think she was HOTT!!!, and still do today. But, she was not "pretty"....she was not "beautiful".....especially NOT in the same way as I find my wife to be.


That's where I have a big problem. You see, your porn star gal is not a real woman. Her life revolves around lining up to a standard that has been deemed by society as "sexy." So your wife can accept being beautiful but not "HOTT" and go on about her life, or if she wants to be electrically sexually desirable to her husband, she must devote the bulk of her time and attention (and money) to being "sexy."

Maybe what I wish for is impossible, but why can't a woman be sexy as hell without over-sized lips and huge breasts and a tiny waist? What makes a porn star sexy? It's the very things I outlined in the beginning of my article. This is what men require in order for a woman to top out on the arousal scale.

Now, I personally think my wife is knock-out gorgeous....is that "truth in reality"? In my reality, it is....Would I like her to lose some weight, and be "sexy" (well, how about "sexier")? Sure....I am a red-blooded male....but, I am not going to leave her or anything if she doesn't.


I don't know what your wife looks like or what size she is, or anything like that, but if she wows you when she walks into the room, why is it that she doesn't wow you in the bedroom? Thin is the only sexy? Losing weight makes one sexier?

This is the male attitude that so infuriates me.

To me....sexy and beautiful are two completely DIFFERENT things....They can go hand-in-hand....BUT, I think for a woman (i.e. my wife), to be beautiful AND sexy...well, perhaps it is all in the "eyes of the beholder".


It's hard for me wrap my head around this. I do appreciate your comments.

Myrrander:
Women are fucking shallow, too, Brandie, you have to admit.


We all are. If women refused to play the game, there would be no game to play. We help nudge things along. We also criticize and judge other women based on those same unrealistic beauty standards. We...I...am not blameless.

A lot of girls like muscle guys with big cars and fat wallets. And don't tell me that all those jocks that were fucking the pretty girls in high school got those girls because they were pretty boys "on the inside."


I'd like to think that it doesn't have to be that way...and that mature women don't operate like this.

Dunno. I like pretty girls. But I don't think I'm shallow.


I hope you don't see yourself in this article, because you're not THAT guy.

I see the point of this article, but I think you're missing the bigger picture: most human beings are shallow idiots.


Did I cover that with "we are a shallow culture"?

Personally, I like a woman to have a decent grasp of grammar. I can overlook a bit of an overbite and some stretch marks for that.


Adorable. (Although I gotta ask why an overbite or stretch marks are things that must be overlooked? Who says these things are ugly? Must they be?)

Mino:
I know why....from all 3 of them (and countless others I have spoken to)...."they are just so cute....look at his butt....he is just so hot!!! tee hee...."


That shows their weakness of character. Ugly on the inside, if you will. Shallow people tend to attract one disastrous relationship after another...I've seen this firsthand.

Toblerone:
Well if you give the time of day and you're not a totally psycho then you're beautiful in my book....I find good taste in men very attractive


Hehehe...wonderful comment.

Shovelheat:
Your 100% correct,Tex. But I plead guilty and ask for mercy. There is, after all, a few billion years of evolution saying I gotta dig the T & A...


The plead guilty and ask for mercy line goes straight to my heart. That's what I wish for...men that at least recognize what's going on. It's a move in the right direction.

While evolution may (does) play a part in physical attraction, a lot of the current "desirable qualities" are society's making. Are over-stuffed lips an evolutionary cue? Protruding ribs don't seem like something that would signal "healthy mating selection"...

(btw, the above mini-rant isn't a criticism of you, Shovelheat, as I find you to be an equal-opportunity perv, hehehehe)
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
her heart, her soul, her sense of humor, and her magnificent brain.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
at what point does it go from "looking your best" to feeding the beast of unrealistic and completely shallow beauty standards?


you answered your own question w/ a line from the original piece.

So, until then, we women will keep up with the crunches and the salad lunches
The implants and the highlights and collagen injections


I'm drawing the line after the salad lunches and before the implants... There, I said it.

I tried to go to your blog to read and reply, because the link from the forum is screwed up. Unfortunately the one on your blog page won't bring up the comments block. so it's going to be a painful process, but i'll make it. This attempt at a response is only a test.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
As you've said, physical beauty isn't everything. It first attracts but if there's nothing good on the inside then I'm not going to stay around. I'm not going to say that I don't pay attention to looks...it's built in. The beauty that counts, though, is on the inside...her mind. I would like an intelligent, talented girl with a good sense of humor. If she's beautiful beyond my wildest dreams...well, that's awesome too. If it's only looks then, no...she's not the one for me. I'd prefer someone with an IQ greater than that of her cleavage.

~Zoo
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
"What Makes a Woman Beautiful?"


Junk in the trunk...

... oh, wait, I accidently proved your point. Gah, I HATE it when I do that...
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
are all of the comments cut in half for everyone else too? this is soooo annoying!
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Moderateman:
her heart, her soul, her sense of humor, and her magnificent brain.


That's beautiful...and spoken like someone who knows the love of a good woman.

imajinit:
I'm drawing the line after the salad lunches and before the implants... There, I said it.


I dunno...looking for a mate with a healthy lifestyle (particularly when living healthy is a big part of your own life) is fine...but I'm not willing to skip the steak or eat grapes while my man munches on Doritos, and I personally would not be happy with someone that expected that from me.

Exercise? Fine. I walk my kid to and from school every morning and make about 20 trips up and down the stairs everyday. Seriously, though, while wanting your mate to be active for the good of their health is a good thing, I think the whole "crunches" and tight body expectations can be carried too far.

I tried to go to your blog to read and reply, because the link from the forum is screwed up. Unfortunately the one on your blog page won't bring up the comments block. so it's going to be a painful process, but i'll make it. This attempt at a response is only a test.


Yeah, JU is doing screwy stuff to this thread.

Zoo:
I would like an intelligent, talented girl with a good sense of humor. If she's beautiful beyond my wildest dreams...well, that's awesome too. If it's only looks then, no...she's not the one for me. I'd prefer someone with an IQ greater than that of her cleavage.


Physical attraction is important. No doubt. But I think that the search for someone that fits this ideal beauty mold can blind us from seeing people for who they really are. It sounds like you have your head on straight to me.

Bakerstreet:
Junk in the trunk...


Bwahahahhahahaaha...the only junk in my trunk is a boogie board and a portable TV/VCR...guess that don't count, huh?

... oh, wait, I accidently proved your point. Gah, I HATE it when I do that...


Nice.

imajinit:
are all of the comments cut in half for everyone else too? this is soooo annoying!


The comments are tiny little boxes here on my end...weird...
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
SHE: I know a teacher in my district who met her fiancee at our gym. He's the absolute sweetest guy on earth. Going to the gym isn't a BAD thing...


and we've all seen your pictures TW... you're a very beautiful woman, so forgive me for saying this, but you lose some of your credibility in trying to pick up the flag and crusade for the women who were not blessed in the looks department.


I'm going to disagree with you. Brandie is absolutely *BEAUTIFUL* to my eyes. But when a woman looks in the mirror...she doesn't see what everyone else sees. She tends to see all the flaws and imperfections. But this is just coming from someone who got clubbed with an ugly stick.

I've never been pretty, and I'll never BE pretty according to society's standards. I could go work out for hours on end and lift weights, and really, all I would do is bulk up so I look like Ah-nold. Women tend to be programmed to compare themselves to one another. I'm one of those women that *NEVER* measures up. Ever. And my "conscious" reminds me of that ALL the time. Getting ready for work? Ugh. Another horrible hair day. Getting ready for church? Yup. Look at that horrendous fat roll that will NEVER go away.

I'm one of those women every day that has to wonder why her man is with her. Physically...I don't stand a chance. He's not perfect either, but...I just feel I'm the bottom of the barrell as far as physicalities go.

Most normal men are just worried about penis size, right? Ryan doesn't worry about his belly or his grey hair at 26 or his unshaven beard or his uncut toenails or fingernails. He's worried about his "performance" more than anything I'd guess...

~shrugs~

Great article, Brandie. Again, you hit the nail right on the head. And coming from another woman...I think you are *gorgeous*...in every way that a woman can be gorgeous. That little belly pooch ain't nothing, babe. You got a heart the size of Texas.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Tex, i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say concerning Jeanna Fine (the porn star). Jeanna Fine has a very nice body....but that is where it all ends. I do not find her so much as pretty or especially not beautiful. My wife on the other hand, I do...she turns me on just by walking into the room. I come home from work at night, and if she is in bed....it is tough for me to NOT maul her in bed.

My wife, to me, has the sexy-hot AND the pretty-beautiful...all wrapped up in one. But, when i look at a porn star like Jeanna Fine, all i see is the sexy-hot.....

Believe me...my wife DOES get me turned on...and that is just by seeing her.

Hopefully, that clears it all up....
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think that physical attraction is being manipulated by these insane societal standards, and that's really sad.


that's one way to look at it, but I really don't think it's true. While there are guys who 'only' give the time of day to women who look like they should be in Cosmo, there are just as many who can appreciate a woman who isn't perfect.

Beauty is beauty... what they put in Maxim is dictated by what we like to look at... it's not the other way around.

If these things are not important to "beauty," then why do men's magazines and movies and everything else in the frickin world only feature women who line up with all these details?


I just don't agree that there are strict rules and rigid standards of what's beautiful in terms of what women appear in magazines. Angelina Jolie, Ashley Judd, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Jennifer Aniston... these women are not all carbon copies of one another. 9 out of 10 men would probably agree that they are HOT! but they're still not all the same.

This type of attitude...these lofty expectations...frustrate me. If all men thought like this, where would we non-Maxim women be? And it seems that this attitude is more and more prevalent. I really hope that I can teach my boys better than this.


There's a really simple way to sum this up, and I don't think anyone has pointed it out yet in this thread. What if I say that I want someone who's pride in their appearance and dedication to staying in shape closely mirrors my own? Is that fair? Can't I have these 'lofty expectations' as long as i'm going to hold myself to the same standard? If I'm going to work out, eat right, and stay in shape, then why would I want to date someone that plans to 'let themselves go' after walking down the aisle? (for example)

Does pride in appearance mean that a woman must diet and work out constantly so that she can wear a size six? Does pride in appearance mean that a woman must forgo sweats and a pony tail for jeans and a tight top and full hair and make up to walk the dog or lounge around the house for a movie day? Can her nails be short and unpolished? Can she be 10, 20, 30 pounds overweight? Can she have crooked teeth? Can she wear her glasses instead of contacts? Can she wear something comfortable?


I don't have the answer to all of these questions, as I'm sure you know... what I can tell you is that it varies from couple to couple. I consider myself a regular joe, which means that i don't care what her hair looks like in the morning, or if she lounges around the house in sweats (personally i think it's kinda hot)... everyone has bad breath and bedhead in the morning... even Brad Pitt. I don't know about the other guys, but I don't care what her nails look like... glasses? crooked teeth? This is what I was trying to say when i said that it's all just details... we all have our faults, and most of us realize that. I've dated women w/ crooked teeth, women with glasses, and women with acne. BUT HERE'S THE KICKER! Would i date a woman w/ all of the above? probably not. I'm SUCH an asshole. But if i had acne, glasses and crooked teeth, I wouldn't be trying to date women that were 'out of my league' either.

once again it's all in where you draw the line. There's nothing wrong with contacts in my book. Nor is there anything wrong with braces. or even tetracycline.

But even if I were beautiful, I don't see how that would hinder my ability to speak out about this.


because it's like rich kids speaking out for rights for poor people living in the ghetto... they can do it, but let's face it, they don't really know what it's like to be poor.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
I could debate this stuff with you all day and all night, because I think about it all the time. My last point (for the moment) is this:

What makes a woman beautiful
What makes a woman sexy
What makes a relationship last
What makes a marriage work

These things may run side by side w/ each other, they may intersect at times, they may coincide on a regular basis, but they are not always the same thing.

Beauty (mutual attraction?) gets you in the door, sexy keep us interested, sex gets us down the aisle, but eventually the relationship has to progress past these superficial things or its doomed. That's where a lot of us fuck up. Once it becomes WORK, we all want to quit and start over with someone new. But i'm prob'ly not telling you anything you don't already know huh?
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Marcie:
I'm going to disagree with you. Brandie is absolutely *BEAUTIFUL* to my eyes. But when a woman looks in the mirror...she doesn't see what everyone else sees. She tends to see all the flaws and imperfections. But this is just coming from someone who got clubbed with an ugly stick.


Thank you for that. And you're right. We are very hard on ourselves. I haven't seen a photo of you, but I have a difficult time imagining you as anything other than adorable.

I'm one of those women every day that has to wonder why her man is with her.


I know that feeling.

Great article, Brandie. Again, you hit the nail right on the head. And coming from another woman...I think you are *gorgeous*...in every way that a woman can be gorgeous. That little belly pooch ain't nothing, babe. You got a heart the size of Texas.


Thank you so much for the kind comments, Marcie. I'm glad you enjoyed the article.

Mino:
Tex, i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say concerning Jeanna Fine (the porn star). Jeanna Fine has a very nice body....but that is where it all ends. I do not find her so much as pretty or especially not beautiful. My wife on the other hand, I do...she turns me on just by walking into the room. I come home from work at night, and if she is in bed....it is tough for me to NOT maul her in bed.


This concept is a bit hard for me to wrap my female brain around, (not to mention that it kind of contradicts your comments about your wife not being sexy and that her losing weight would make her sexier), but I am very glad to hear from a man who is enraptured with his wife and who is willing to rave about his attraction to her, even if she doesn't look like a supermodel.

My wife, to me, has the sexy-hot AND the pretty-beautiful...all wrapped up in one. But, when i look at a porn star like Jeanna Fine, all i see is the sexy-hot.....


Ummm...okaaaay...but again, very nice to hear such compliments about your wife. Do you tell her this? Because if you don't, you should. She needs to hear that you think she's sexy-hot AND pretty-beautiful. Often.

Believe me...my wife DOES get me turned on...and that is just by seeing her.




imajinit:
While there are guys who 'only' give the time of day to women who look like they should be in Cosmo, there are just as many who can appreciate a woman who isn't perfect.


While this may be true, it often doesn't FEEL that way.

Beauty is beauty... what they put in Maxim is dictated by what we like to look at... it's not the other way around.


You do realize that the women in these magazines are dolled up with hours of hair and make up, thousand dollar clothes, creative lighting, and airbrushed to perfection? This is what you see day to day that inspires Maxim to feature it?

(btw, I don't mean to pick on Maxim, it's just the one that happened to come to mind when I was writing this)

I just don't agree that there are strict rules and rigid standards of what's beautiful in terms of what women appear in magazines. Angelina Jolie, Ashley Judd, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Jennifer Aniston... these women are not all carbon copies of one another. 9 out of 10 men would probably agree that they are HOT! but they're still not all the same.


Different in some ways, but the same in the ways I detailed (with the exception of hair color and bust size...but not perkiness) in the beginning of my article.

What if I say that I want someone who's pride in their appearance and dedication to staying in shape closely mirrors my own? Is that fair? Can't I have these 'lofty expectations' as long as i'm going to hold myself to the same standard? If I'm going to work out, eat right, and stay in shape, then why would I want to date someone that plans to 'let themselves go' after walking down the aisle?


Actually, I covered that in my reply to you. If a healthy lifestyle is important to you, it makes sense for you to seek out someone with the same values. I don't see anything hypocritical about that. That's you, though...that's not every man.

I don't know about the other guys, but I don't care what her nails look like... glasses? crooked teeth? This is what I was trying to say when i said that it's all just details... we all have our faults, and most of us realize that. I've dated women w/ crooked teeth, women with glasses, and women with acne.


Okay...but did you rave about how beautiful she was? Did glasses or acne or a crooked smile affect your feelings of desire for her? That's what I want to know.

BUT HERE'S THE KICKER! Would i date a woman w/ all of the above? probably not. I'm SUCH an asshole. But if i had acne, glasses and crooked teeth, I wouldn't be trying to date women that were 'out of my league' either.


Wow. I wouldn't call you an asshole, but it does seem a tad superficial. Glasses? Tons of body hair? Backne? Crooked teeth? I can't speak for all women, but a combo of these things is not a no-go for me. Maybe I'm a freak for thinking little quirks like these are fine and just a normal part of being human...dunno...

once again it's all in where you draw the line. There's nothing wrong with contacts in my book. Nor is there anything wrong with braces. or even tetracycline


Sure. And I realize that you're not suggesting that a woman must do these things in order to be attractive, but for many women, it may not be an option or a concern. I have a neighbor who wears glasses...she has acne scarring...and her teeth are very crooked (in order to fix it, a dentist would have to actually crack open a part of her face) and guess what? She might possibly be the most beautiful on the block.

because it's like rich kids speaking out for rights for poor people living in the ghetto... they can do it, but let's face it, they don't really know what it's like to be poor.


So people who are in a position that affords them visibility and influence should not champion causes that they have not personally experienced? I don't quite understand that.

I could debate this stuff with you all day and all night, because I think about it all the time.


I'm glad you've continued to comment...this is something I'm pretty passionate about, and I enjoy the debate.

What makes a woman beautiful
What makes a woman sexy
What makes a relationship last
What makes a marriage work

These things may run side by side w/ each other, they may intersect at times, they may coincide on a regular basis, but they are not always the same thing.


Mostly agree.

Beauty (mutual attraction?) gets you in the door, sexy keep us interested, sex gets us down the aisle, but eventually the relationship has to progress past these superficial things or its doomed.


I agree with that.

That's where a lot of us fuck up. Once it becomes WORK, we all want to quit and start over with someone new. But i'm prob'ly not telling you anything you don't already know huh?


I'm not sure what to make of that comment.