For those slamming the Presidents speech.

What was it you wanted to hear?

Although I already knew the left would poke holes in President Bushes speech last night, I am curious to know EXACTLY what it was you wanted to hear?

I would like sound examples, and explanations what you would do in his shoes.

Please do not say dumb stuff, like he lied about the reasons for war, or we should not be there.

The facts are, we are there, period.

Lets try to keep it clean.

I would really like to know, with no flaming if possible.

Here is your chance to show me what you think, I will respect any ideas that make sense.

This is your chance to show me you have a plan, and not just bashing Bush for bashing sake.

9,064 views 32 replies
Reply #1 Top
I didn't watch it. I was playing Trivial Pursuit with my husband. Hehe, I don't feel like I missed out on anything.
Reply #2 Top
Reply By: Texas WahinePosted: Wednesday, June 29, 2005I didn't watch it. I was playing Trivial Pursuit with my husband. Hehe, I don't feel like I missed out on anything.


I did watch it and waited for the public flogging to begin.
Reply #3 Top
it would have been nice to hear truths,
Iraq and 911 .... No relationship

Now If the US had invaded Saudi Arabia (also a dictatorship, also not a free system and by the way home to most the people involved in 911) it would be an obvious correlation....

Iraq why did the US invade?
What is the exit strategy?
What is the reason for staying?
Since no time frame is possible giving milestones to watch for would be good.
Reply #4 Top
I was on a plane flying home so missed it...if I was home I would have missed it too...I'll get a synopsis on the Daily Show...on Comedy Central
Reply #5 Top
Iraq why did the US invade?
What is the exit strategy?
What is the reason for staying?
Since no time frame is possible giving milestones to watch for would be good


I guess either you didn't watch the speech at all or you failed to comprehend even one point that Bush made.
Reply #6 Top
drmiller, if you were so much more able to comprehend the links, please explain it me,
Use small words for those of us poor mere mortals.





By the way your use of the symbol of racial prejudice and hate really fits you. Have a swastica for your next post?
Reply #7 Top
, I am curious to know EXACTLY what it was you wanted to hear?

I would like sound examples, and explanations what you would do in his shoes.

Please do not say dumb stuff, like he lied about the reasons for war, or we should not be there.


in order to reply to your question, i'm gonna have to do what you asked us not to do.

when porter goss (speaking for the administration and the cia) says publicly that he is almost sure he knows where bin laden is...but we can't get him yet cuz of fair play and consideration for the national sovereignty of the county in which he believes bin laden to be hiding...

and there's an unreleased cia document which reportedly concludes that iraq has now replaced afghanistan as the main training ground for terrorists in the world because they get realtime battle experience there...

then i really have to conclude that when the president says, "Our mission in Iraq is clear. We're hunting down the terrorists."...

bush is either lying or dumb or both.

what i'd do if i were him? goss would already be in early retirement. since international opinion is no longer a problem (shameless plug for an explanation of this statement Link
) for anyone, i'd be on the phone apologizing for the mistakes of my predecessor and doing my best to get other nations to provide enough troops for the world to mount a campaign to get bin laden NOW.

despite all the nonsense i've heard about how bin laden is no longer a threat, when you absolutely, positively have to kill off an organization, cut off its head.
Reply #8 Top

drmiller, if you were so much more able to comprehend the links, please explain it me,
Use small words for those of us poor mere mortals.

I have to agree with DR Miler.  If you are still asking those questions, you did not listen to the speech.

Reply #9 Top
drmiller, if you were so much more able to comprehend the links,


What links are you refering to? What parts do you not understand?


WASHINGTON — A day after President Bush went before the nation reinforcing his determination to stay the course in Iraq, lawmakers split along party lines in assessing whether Bush was effective.

"Our progress has been uneven — but progress is being made," Bush told a television audience as well as troops in the hall at Ft. Bragg. N.C., home to the the Army's elite 82nd Airborne Division (search).

"We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America's resolve. We are fighting against men with blind hatred — and armed with lethal weapons — who are capable of any atrocity ... They are trying to shake our will in Iraq — just as they tried to shake our will on September 11, 2001. They will fail," he said.

Democrats faulted Bush and said he wasn't being honest with the American people.

"The president has to understand when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you had to do is stop digging," Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., told FOX News.

But Republicans said Bush did a good job of stating what was at stake in Iraq and they said Bush was right in not laying out deadlines for when U.S. troops would come home.


"That timetable will be dicated by events on the ground. I think that timetable will succeed," said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., who acknowledged that the work ahead "will be long, hard and tough."

Congress on Wednesday will look further into the Iraq question with several hearings and events.

— Sen. John Warner (search), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, is holding a morning hearing to review the reappointment of Peter Pace to the grade of general and to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to replace Gen. Richard Myers.

— Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, chairwoman of the House International Relations Subcommittee (search) on the Middle East and Central Asia, is having an afternoon briefing with Richard Jones, the senior adviser to the secretary and coordinator for Iraq, on that country's transition to democracy.

— Sens. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., vice-chairman of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, and Jack Reed, D-R.I., of the Senate Armed Services Committee (search), are set to discuss the situation in Iraq as well as criticize the administration for its expected shortfall in the Veterans Affairs budget for this fiscal year.

Warner gave high marks to Bush for his speech Tuesday night and said he would use his hearing to give a chance to send a warning to lawmakers and others who would speak disparagingly about the effort in Iraq.

"We need to knock off this business of quagmires" and saying who is a patriot and who is not, said Warner, R-Va., suggesting that the troops on the ground in Iraq are hearing filtered news that would suggest to them that they are not getting the support they need from some back home.

"I think we're going to take it very seriously to watch our rhethoric, those of us in Congress, and also members of the administration in their rhetoric to make certain what we say can not be misconstrued [or] in any way shows a lack of support," Warner said.

In his nightime address, Bush laid out an extensive check list of accomplishments in Iraq as well as goals to achieve.

Bush argued that Iraq is the latest battlefield in the War on Terror and cited comments made by Usama bin Laden that the war will be fought and won or lost in Iraq.

"Among the terrorists, there is no debate," Bush said. "Hear the words of Usama bin Laden: 'This Third World War … is raging' in Iraq. 'The whole world is watching this war.' He says it will end in 'victory and glory or misery and humiliation,'" Bush said.

The president's remarks came after public opinion have shown lagging support for the mission in Iraq and a fatigue from news of daily terror attacks aimed at the Iraqi people and coalition troops.
Reply #10 Top
3 by Keithpup
Wednesday, June 29, 2005


Iraq why did the US invade?
What is the exit strategy?
What is the reason for staying?
Since no time frame is possible giving milestones to watch for would be good.


I want specifics, not generalities.
Reply #11 Top
7 by kingbee
Wednesday, June 29, 2005


when porter goss (speaking for the administration and the cia) says publicly that he is almost sure he knows where bin laden is...but we can't get him yet cuz of fair play and consideration for the national sovereignty of the county in which he believes bin laden to be hiding...


I believe if we KNEW where bin laden was we would have him, a force recon team or anyother special forces team should be able to get in and out with bin laden without a ripple,

goss {my best trump voice} YOUR FIRED.
Reply #12 Top
4 by Manopeace
Wednesday, June 29, 2005


was on a plane flying home so missed it...if I was home I would have missed it too...I'll get a synopsis on the Daily Show...on Comedy Central


did you have fun?
Reply #13 Top
5 by drmiler
Wednesday, June 29, 2005


guess either you didn't watch the speech at all or you failed to comprehend even one point that Bush made.


8 by Dr. Guy
Wednesday, June 29, 2005


have to agree with DR Miler. If you are still asking those questions, you did not listen to the speech.


gee what a shock that I agree with the docs.
Reply #14 Top
Reply By: Keithpup


By the way your use of the symbol of racial prejudice and hate really fits you. Have a swastica for your next post?


rude and totally unnecesary, please refrain from this behavior.
Reply #15 Top
I AM STILL WAITING FOR SOLUTIONS, .... COME ON FOLKS SHOW ME SOMETHING besides talking head rhetoric.
Reply #16 Top

gee what a shock that I agree with the docs.

yea, it is so rare.

Reply #17 Top
I am curious to know EXACTLY what it was you wanted to hear?

Mr. President, your Secretary of Defense has stated that the insurgency could last 8 to 12 years. You stated that our forces will stay until the Iraqi national force could stand on its own.

How much of the insurgency would the Iraqi force have to be able to handle before we stand down?

Mr. President, in the statements from the White House previous to the Iraq war. Secretary Rumsfeld said he did not see the war lasting longer than 6 months. Also these statements never mentioned the possibility of such a well organized resistance.

Since we were going into a nation that was purported to sponsor terrorist activities, why were we so caught unawares that such an insurgency could be fielded?

Mr. President, in your speech you quoted Osama Bin Laden: "This Third World War is raging" in Iraq. "The whole world is watching this war." ... “it will end in "victory and glory, or misery and humiliation."

Since the terrorist organization is so mobile, and if Bin Laden looses Iraq, what is to prevent him from moving his organization elsewhere, and if he does, will the mean a further commitment of our troops?

IG
Reply #18 Top
#17 by InfoGeek
Wednesday, June 29, 2005


am curious to know EXACTLY what it was you wanted to hear?

all I have heard from the politicians on the left are totally unreasonable demands, I just wanted to know what could have bush said about the war, plans for disengaging etc, that would have pleased the left is all.
Reply #19 Top
Mr. President, your Secretary of Defense has stated that the insurgency could last 8 to 12 years. You stated that our forces will stay until the Iraqi national force could stand on its own.

How much of the insurgency would the Iraqi force have to be able to handle before we stand down?

Mr. President, in the statements from the White House previous to the Iraq war. Secretary Rumsfeld said he did not see the war lasting longer than 6 months. Also these statements never mentioned the possibility of such a well organized resistance.

Since we were going into a nation that was purported to sponsor terrorist activities, why were we so caught unawares that such an insurgency could be fielded?

Mr. President, in your speech you quoted Osama Bin Laden: "This Third World War is raging" in Iraq. "The whole world is watching this war." ... “it will end in "victory and glory, or misery and humiliation."

Since the terrorist organization is so mobile, and if Bin Laden looses Iraq, what is to prevent him from moving his organization elsewhere, and if he does, will the mean a further commitment of our troops?

IG


Great questions info, to bad someone did not ask them I too would have loved hearing answers for all of these.
Reply #20 Top
Great questions info, to bad someone did not ask them I too would have loved hearing answers for all of these.


I agree. Excellent questions, InfoGeek, and I would hope that those on both the left and the right would be open to hearing the answers to them.
Reply #22 Top
Reply By: Texas WahinePosted: Wednesday, June 29, 2005Great questions info, to bad someone did not ask them I too would have loved hearing answers for all of these.I agree. Excellent questions, InfoGeek, and I would hope that those on both the left and the right would be open to hearing the answers to them.


I know I am open to some honesty and solutions.
Reply #23 Top
Reply By: ManopeacePosted: Wednesday, June 29, 2005did you have fun?yes I did...read my thread...Link


will do.
Reply #24 Top
This is a truly refreshing line of thought coming from a pro-Bush fellow. The proverbial Bush supporters always act predictably, which is verbal attacks of deflection. And this takes different forms, the most extreme being the mainstream media being accomplice by deliberately not reporting on stories which are being extensively reported on in other parts of the world. It's a good question you pose and it's always lost in the political muddle. So what would I do? I'll respect your wish and not go into the lies used for getting to Iraq. I will only focus on what you said. They're there now, they're not leaving, that's it. Take it from there.
Stop Shaming The Dead And Wounded
The political veil would be drawn back from Dover and the troops would get the same respect shown to them from 1776 to 2002. Not only would that be of great comfort to the families of the lost and wounded, but it would also provide new life's blood support from those who are sentimental and nostalgic and who remember the days when a returning serviceman was treated with honor and respect. I actually think doing so would give Bush some boost in the polls because like it or not, the fact is that many veterans don't like Bush because he dodged his generation's war and he invited the enemy to attack his own troops. If he would at least allow them to be recognized, officially, then that would give him a boost. Also let's remember he's hiding them for a reason. Yet that's still no reason, or to me it's not a good enough reason, to shame the dead and wounded. Returning under cover of darkness would end.
I know this is not a solution to the events in Iraq, it's something that would make the public more sensitive to the cost of the war. Unless that's what's really being hidden.
Iraqi Civilian Sensitivities
A war of occupation has historically been doomed from the start, but there are things that could be done to minimize your casualties when trying to maintain control over an occupied territory. The most important and basic of these is the need to assimilate your troops into the occupied culture, to understand or at the least have a basic rudimentary understanding of the culture of the people and lands they occupy. And this can be a culture shock to US/Iraq supporters here. An American, any American in fact, could be forgiven for not realizing he created a firestorm just because he was careless enough to drop a Koran in a shit-filled toilet. To us, or any North American, that's just a power trip. Or it's just some guys blowing off steam, or it's just sorority-style pranks not worthy of further mention. But over there, to the men and women of Islam, it's desecration. It's defiling God's word. Of course I wouldn't get in a huff if someone flushed my Catholic Bible down the water closet. It means nothing to me. And it would likely mean nothing to any of you. But again, to them over there, it's evil to do so. And this is something that makes the US lose Iraqi supporters every day of the occupation.
Why It Would Be Job One
The civilian population is the most important resource the occupying army can use for benefit. I guess it can be easy for you people to forget, but the violence committed by the US creates new enemies, maybe not die-hard in-the-trenches armed-to-the-teeth enemies, but definitely I-know-where-the-IED-is-but-I'm-not-going-to-bother-telling-you-about-it enemies. And these seemingly harmless Iraqi citizens who are against the US cause will feed the freedom fighters, will store weapons and anything else the freedom fighters would deem important enough to hide from the Americans, will not tell the Americans about what they know of the resistance because like cancer, everyone in Iraq knows at least one relative or close friend who has been negatively affected by the US occupation. And they are the most dangerous enemy of all. A guy with a gun or mortar is something the GI's are trained to deal with and bypass. Training tells them what to do. But the civilians who support the freedom fighters are flexible in a volatile and unpredictable way. Their help could mean the thirst of a freedom fighter being quenched during a long protracted combat operation under the hot Iraqi sun, or it could mean a flat tire from the nails they may toss on the road of an approaching American convoy, or it could even mean the death of ten or twenty or even fifty American GI's because they allowed the freedom fighters to bury a Soviet rocket launcher in their garden a while back. They are the ones who will determine the victor, and their getting some form of satisfaction should be paramount on any occupational army's to-do list.
Case of the Missing War Crimes
I would cease the killing of unarmed unidentified Iraqi civilians and only fire upon those who are a danger, not a group walking down a street all bunched up in an obviously unmilitiralistic way i.e. they were civilians walking with no evasive movements let alone a threat worthy of a missile strike. The war crimes would stop immediately, and that would actually create support among the Iraqis, especially those who think the US is acting in it's own interests with no though for their lives whatsoever. No more illegal napalm, no more policies for legal torture, no more unidentified 'enemies' being killed on a daily basis, only a fair occupation. And before you start laughing at the term 'fair' keep in mind what I said earlier. That there are different forms of occupation. At present it's an indifferent army with an angry hostile public. I would strive for an occupation which is as gentle as possible on the citizens under their control. An occupation army is never going to be popular and will always attract death from those who want their own country back. But it can also be a reciprocation of sorts. If the US is truly caring about the Iraqi people (contrarily to the US led sanctions which killed a million kids), then the people they occupy will know it.
Goodbye Mercs
Nothing to add here except the Iraqi citizens would know that things had just changed for the better. For credibility, you need to have men under your own operational control, and the mercs are a force unto themselves. The Fallujans knew it, and they did to them what any of you would do to any Chinese HalliYingBurtonYang who would drive through your destroyed neighborhood located in Dodge City. Talk about arrogance! The mercs fill an important gap that requires their staying? No, to me credibility is far more important than force. But only if you're serious about wanting to bring anything good to the nation.
Torture? What's That?
Torture as de facto policy is gone. Ended. Finished. All that's left to do is to crayola crayon a big Welcome Back! sign and await the huge portion of returning Iraqi citizenry. Also, put up seven ballons on the wall. For the festive look. In all seriousness people, of you're claiming to be bringing another nation something that is good, employing torture is not and will never help you with your cause. We wouldn't expect someone to like us and value us if we punch someone in the face while giving them a free dentist tooth replacement voucher. Nor would you see reason not to kill someone who is molesting your kids, for these facts have been documented at the US run prison. Why there isn't an uproar in America over this is beyond me. Actually I think I know. Americans know and recall that Hussein's torturing of his own people was one of the earlier excuses for invasion. So to realize you've been suckered would be a mortal blow to the common American ego. Hence their deliberate avoidance of a CHR (cold hard reality), namely the fact that the US is now torturing Iraqis in the same prisons Hussein tortured his people in. The comparisons are endless. "John, don't you slap your sister Jane!.....*mom slaps Jane*...Didn't you hear me John? *slap's Jane*, I said to NOT SLAP JANE!! *slaps Jane once more*.....In this light it's plain to see their deliberate avoidance of this subject.
Food for Thought
An occupation of another foreign land is doomed to fail eventually. The focus should be on the occupied citizenry, to make things more comfortable for them in any small or large way they can think of. And before you focus on the word 'uncomfortable', recall the whole point of an occupation is to placate the occupied and try for the least amount of casualties within the possibility spectrum. It's natural to want to be mean or rude to these 'suspects', but in order to stay in line with the official US Iraq policies, the only action one can take and maintain credibility with is to set the good example and display to the Iraqis what tolerance and a free society can accomplish. This would be moot of course if the delivery of supposed western-style democracy wasn't the official excuse for occupying Iraq.
Some Things to Ponder
If you were truly caring for the Iraqi people, why the US-led sanctions that led to a million Iraqi deaths which by the way Former SofState Albright called "worth the price"?
If you were truly wishing to rid the Iraqis of a government which tortures its citizens, why do the invaders torture the citizens too, IN THE SAME PRISONS HUSSEIN USED!?!
If things are better in Iraq as Bush states, why is there less clean water than before the start of the occupation? Why is there raw sewage stagnating in areas that never had the problem since they had an efficent sewage system before the occupation? Why is the power on for roughly 3 to 6 hours per day when at the beginning of the occupation there were on for roughly 10 to 12 hours per day? Why have over 90% of the dead US servicemen died after the speech where Bush told his men and his country that the mission was accomplished, that the war was over?
The Simple Version
If the US invaded Iraq because of the threat of Iraqi WMD, then the US should now leave since the reason for their objectives have been found to be incorrect. If the US invaded for control, future control, over the massive colossal oil reserves under Iraqi soil, then they shoud stay so long as they state it for the official record. Like I've always said about this, if the US said they were doing it for oil then fine, whatever. If the US went into Iraq under the UN international banner, then fine, whatever. While not supporting the invasion, I wouldn't righteously oppose it as strongly as I do. Honesty and nations following accepted international laws go a long way in my book.
Reply #25 Top
By the way your use of the symbol of racial prejudice and hate really fits you. Have a swastica for your next post


--oh lets not start that debate all over again...keithpup...