Thoughts on DesktopX's future

Life in a Windows Vista world

Stardock makes DesktopX Enterprise which can export entire desktops as enviroments and even then has licensing involved per seat.  Why does Stardock do that? Our answer: Because we don't really want people to do that because it could compete with premium content Stardock creates/sells with DesktopX.  But the whole discussion touches on the problem that has plagued DesktopX since the beginning -- what exactly IS DesktopX?  It's own versatility has been helped it and hurt it because no one knows what exactly it's supposed to do.  It gets compared to the myriad of widget programs like Konfabulator because it can, amongst a zillion other things, do widgets.  It gets compared to Litestep because you can build desktops.  It gets compared to Avedesk because it can put desktop objects on your system.  It gets compared to Visual Studio and Visual Basic because you can integrate COM/ActiveX controls into your creations seamlessly. 

DesktopX can essentially build anything that lives on a desktop.  You could build a custom spread sheet:

DesktopX can be used to create fancy auto-run programs. Stardock uses it internally to create its auto-run programs:

But there is always the issue -- how much does one charge for this? Creating these things was non-trivial and there is some value in our stuff looking "Better" than would be competitors in other markets because of this.  Value that would be greater than say $69.95 really.  Someone could buy DesktopX Pro for $69.95 and start up a business creating auto-runs for companies.  But still there's always a question on pricing.

 

But isn't that kind of like Microsoft saying that they don't want to sell a development environment for $400 or $500 and have someone make a browser or word processor that competes with them?

If you're selling a software development tool, you're basically selling to a market that's got a history, and the history seems to say that these kinds of tools just aren't that expensive, compared to what they can create.

The example of Maya is in a different market, with a different history and different price points, as far as I know.

I agree with Stupendous Man, in that it seems like the ambiguous nature of DesktopX is for you to clarify, Brad. I still think it's a great product and I enjoy using it. I do VC++ development with a DX desktop loaded all of the time now, and I wouldn't want to do without it.

No because it requires immense effort still.  Visual Studio can't turn out a Word processor in a couple of weeks.  DesktopX Pro can build some very specific types of unique content without alot of effort.

Let's use Natural Desktop as an example -- with DesktopX Enterprise, we built that in a few weeks with just a couple people.  With Visual Studio, it would have taken many many many months to do it.

For building desktops, DesktopX is very specialized at the types of content it can create just as programs like Maya are specialized to create 3D models.   There were a lot of people at Stardock who didn't want DesktopX Pro or Enteprise to exist at all (particularly Enterprise).

If Konfabulator has shown anything to be true it is that the CONTENT matters more than the technology of the thing that uses the content.   DesktopX can create, relatively easily, a very specific type of unique content that people want.  So the question is which direction is best? Turn DesktopX into a quasi-internal-only tool to create other stuff to sell that is stand-alone? Or to make it available to other developers who might compete with content Stardock might want to sell? There's no easy answer.

Let me give you a totally unrelated example: The Political Machine.  Stardock developed a Direct3D backend for DesktopX to take its .dxpacks and run them in a 3D environment.  As a result, Stardock was able to crank out the user interfaces and screens for The Political Machine in a very short amount of time.  This allowed Stardock to cut development time on the game in half.  This led to the question -- should Stardock try to encourage/sell DesktopX Enterprise to other game developers to help them (And generate additional revenue) or should DesktopX Enterprise be used as a competitive advantage for Stardock's own internal game design teams?  Like most things, the answer ended up somewhere in between -- we decided that we would tell people how we wer able to create all these game screens so fast but we wouldn't encourage people too much to use DesktopX for game making unless they came to us and negotiated licensing.

The Desktop Pet is a good example and you'll see why when it comes out.  That was created with DesktopX Pro (not Enterprise).   The Desktop Pet will probably sell 5,000 to 10,000 copies on-line and if we get it into retail another 20,000 to 30,000 units.  You couldn't create a desktop pet with say Konfabulator or any of the other "widget" programs because they're currently too limited.  But DesktopX Pro, out of the box, can do it.  One developer and one 3D modeler in a couple months.  And there's nothing out ther that is anywhere near as sophisticated.  But there's nothing stopping someone else from doing the same thing as we're doing.  All some larger company would have to do is pick up a copy of DesktopX Pro for $69.95 and create "Virtual Rover" or something and have a hit leaving our pet in the dust.  So again, there is always some conflict over how DesktopX should be marketed.  Some might say "Why does Stardock even let DesktopX be available at all to the public?" 

A good example was a product we barely publicized because the pricing was never easy to nail down.  It was called Impression Creator. It made it easy to create those auto-run menus that you see when you put your CD in the drive.  We noticed something -- most of those menus look terrible and most of them look as if the developer was trying to make them quasi-skinned.  But with Impression Creator (which is just DesktopX Pro re-branded) you could create spectacular ones in an afternoon.  But what killed it is when DesktopX's price was moved to $69.95.  At that point, it was too much of a niche market to justify putting scarce marketing resources into. 

Moreover, we've seen that the person or company creating the content gets more credit than the technology behind it.  We'd be better off providing such content creation as a service that we could then bring in skinners from the community to work with us on.  Despite all the power of DesktopX, third-parties have not really done that much with it.  This is the opposite experience we've had with WindowBlinds where skinners run the show.

So far, because people make trinkets like clocks or try to copy what's been done on Konfabulator, the issue with what DesktopX should and shouldn't do has never come to a head.  A few months back someone made an Aero web browser using DesktopX that was fully compatible with Internet Explorer (it uses its ActiveX control).  I know that raised some eye brows around here. 

Some people forget that DesktopX was developed during a different time in the skinning community.  The target market for it was skinners (same as WindowBlinds).  It was expected that the community would jump in and figure out all the neat things that can be done with it.   But that didn't happen.  And so 4 years later, Konfabulator shows up on the Mac and then eventually on Windows.  And unlike DesktopX, its developer included abunch of really cool content it made itself.  It wasn't made with skinners in mind, making a Konfabulator widget (especially when it was first released) was huge pain.  They focused purely on the consumers -- the users.  Imagine how different DesktopX's history might have been in 75% of the budget wasn't spend on the content creation elements -- the GUI for creating, manipulating, and exporting objects and desktops?  6 months alone were spent figuring out how to make ActiveX controls move seamlessly with other DekstopX objects.  Nothing else can do that.  But how many things use ActiveX controls? Hardly any.  It's incredibly powerful stuff but instead people debate which is "better" based on how pretty the little PNG files that display clocks and weather monitors and other trivialities. 

In other words, Stardock developed DesktopX under the misconception that the key to success was getting "Skinners" on board.  But that has changed in the past few years.  What we've seen both in our own experience is that consumers are driving success.  Consumers will choose what they find easiest/best to use and THEN the skinners will follow what the consumers are already doing.  It doesn't matter that Konfabulator and the rest have no real development environment for the skinner.  The skinner will sit down in some editor and peck out their XML and their JavaScript and deal with all the other hassles because that's where all the user are.

The problem is that DesktopX is still saddled with all this development environment stuff which adds a great deal of complexity and overhead to the actual environment (unless you use just the DesktopX run-time which we did in 3.0).  If there's a DesktopX 4, I think you'll find it a very very different animal.  It'll not care about the content creation, it'll use XAML what content creation help it provides will mostly be about making it easier to do simple things (widgets for instance) but fancier things would be done using Sparkle and what not.  But it's hard to say this early on.

21,447 views 51 replies
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So, in order to learn how to use the next DesktopX, I need to take a class on xml, javascript and possibly sparkle?

I see a disappointment in the demographic...are you or Stardock not satisfied with where DesktopX is going? Are you questioning whether it should be on the skinner market, or the commercial market? If it weren't for Windowblinds, I would never have known about DesktopX, because it was and is skinning that brings me to use most of the products that Stardock develops.

I notice that there are quotes in your post, Brad. This is evidently a carry-over from another thread, could you point me to where the rest of the thread is that you've quoted from, so that I can catch up with the dialogue that seems to be missing from this thread.

Isn't DesktopX already split in two, one version for the skinning community and the other more powerful version aimed at the commercial market?

I admit, this post actually made me install the version of DesktopX that I bought with my OD subscription. I read the documentation on it. I think I might even try it out. I've never used xml, xaml, javascript or any other programming language. Sorry, I forgot about the BASIC I learned in the 6th grade (1985). My interest is peaked. It looks like almost too late, from what I get from your post, Brad, is that DesktopX development will no longer be targetted at those who use it now, making desktop objects, widgets and themes. And now I feel like I am left behind.

All I know is that I will be reading threw the DesktopX threads, now. Since I feel left out, I want to catch myself up. Which also means I'll have to do a super-study of how to use DesktopX, so I'll know what everyone is gabbing about.

Thanks for the post Brad.


Posted via WinCustomize Browser/Stardock Central
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I nearly said this in the State of StarDock thread, but here's just as good. I really appreciate you letting us users in on what's happening, and some of the reasoning behind decisions concerning both the WinCustomize site and the suite of software.

I sure hope there is a DesktopX 4, even if it is much different. I'm beginning to enjoy working with DX very much, although not without some frustration and complaints along the way.

I can understand the conflict about releasing a development product that may be used to create software that competes with your own. But, for once, I think you are selling DesktopX short! Sure people could easily make a competing desktop pet or themed desktop experience. But they could just as easily use it in ways unforseen; in all likelihood (I feel) the first major independant successes created with DX will display innovation and novel application of DX's tools and abilities.

Consider ActiveX controls and just how easily they can be integrated into a mini-application with DesktopX. My latest DX project required me to extract and create zip archives. What I thought would be one of the biggest hurdles of the project became almost trivial once I found a freeware ActiveX control to do the work for me. When I think of what could be done with some of the commercial controls and a bit more skill on my part, my mind reels.

I hope DesktopX will continued to be developed not just for use internally as a tool for making second generation apps, but also as a retail product.
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I am quite surpriced actually that Dx haven't caught on as a developemtn platform for software. I mean, there is so much shareware programs that could have benefitted from a DX fronted GUI. I plan to use DesktopX for my Final Major project after christmas when I'm making a media center. I plan to use C# and DesktopX to create the software running on it. I've allso been playing aorund on the idea of making other projects and software in the same manner. However, seeing how Stardock now is taking a step back to rethink DX, I might find myself having to do the same. It is understandable though. Seeing that MS is introducing Sparkle. That really interested me. Espesially regarding to how it would be used to author GUI creation. The editor in DX has allways appeared limited compared to the power of DX.
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I agree with the prior posts: The reason I enjoy using DesktopX so much is because of its value as an IDE. Now that Microsoft is trying to move away from Visual Basic in favor of the .NET architecture, this sort of rapid-application-development software is extremely useful. DesktopX 3 does stuff that Visual Basic can't even come close to in effort/time.
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Hmmm..

Havving read the article.. and the posts a single thought has hit me..
DesktopX is a total skinning/enviromental/controlling software, close to a platform in, and on, itself.
DX is a brilliant in itself. It allows total skinning of the desktop. Widges and all kinds of goofy stiff.... YET noone, not even the maste skinners or the StarDock crew itself has ever exploited the posibilities herin.... and it seems, as pointed out in the article, that people stick to small stuff....

What I think we need is a PRIME example of how DX can change our desktop into something usefull without covering it in a waste of useless stuff and grafiks..... and a exaple of the opposite

I think a lot of people would suddently se the posibilities of DX and giving it the credit and use that it creaves.

That said... I can personally say that I have used it a lot of times, and sadly I also know one good reason why many probally DON'T use it..... My maschine tends to STOP when I use it for long periods of time... and in the end, the fault is my own... I simply has WAY to much stuff on my computer, but ain't that the norm now a day's ?????

Its all teh small bugs that people can ignore... but when the S*** brakes down, and you afterward loose your configuration, even though you saved it... you get irritated

But still DX is unique and it works fine....mostly , what we need are EXAPLES ... so BRING EM' ON..
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Reading through the posts here and in the other article about the review on DX I think a alot of us would like to see working examples of how DX could be used in different environments. Most of the themes I have sampled are nice but seem to be for show only. Eye candy is nice but if its not usable it has a very very short shelf life with me.

I run a linux workstation with either Blackbox(love it greatly) or enlightenment(fun!!) both allow me to set up a very tight development environment and look awesome as well. I havent had the luck with DX yet although I still keep going at it! I really like the Stardock products and DX. They definitely have come a long way since I first tried them 2 or 3 years ago.

.. but still... I would love to see anothers DX desktop who develops software and uses to enhance his/her development. I would love to see someones DX desktop who does ray tracing or database work or all of the above!! I know some people are kind of tight when it comes to showing off their actual use in screenshorts but ...share the pics!! LOL I love to see what others can do. Its amazing how many talented people are really out there.
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Brad,
This is really good and make us understand more how stardock feels about DesktopX. One question, can Stardock put Windows 9X support back into DesktopX Pro? The reason I wanted to know is, Impression Creator was a cool looking program and I could see how this could help developers (um... me) for quick startup interfaces for local and disc based programs, but for just that purposem I can't pay that much for the application, expecially since I don't make that much if any off my programs and solutions and also since this would only really be used as a presentation layer.

I remember seeing in some Stardock documentation that DesktopX Pro 2.x had Windows 98, ME support, but it seems to have been dropped in DesktopX Pro 3.0. I can only assume this was because Impression Creator, since like you said, it was basicly DesktopX Pro rebranded and the Win 9x support that the only main difference.

Now that it seems Impression Creator isn't doing as well, could Stardock add this back to DesktopX Pro, it might even help attract more developers to Pro.
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would love to see someones DX desktop who does ray tracing or database work or all of the above!!

A DX desktop doing raytracing? ... what rays are you talking about here? o_O *grabs nearest tin foil hat*


I'd love for DX to develop into a software developement product than just widgets. At the same time I hope that it wouldn't raise the price for it all too much. All though I could see it would to some extent. DX integrated in .NET developemt would be amazing.
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Very interesting article Brad.

From what you write I see that your biggest problem
is that you haven't decided what you want to do.

You have to decide if you want be content providers, or,
creators of the tools that content providers use
to make cool stuff.

It's either or, you can't have both in this case.

Imagine if Adobe had decided that "hot dang, this Photoshop
application is making it darn easy to create really cool
stuff! Let's keep it for ourselves so we can use it to make
super nice graphics that others will be envious of!"

Luckily for the world that was not what they decided to do
and today Photoshop is the leading graphics application,
used in all thinkable and unthinkable situations.

So, decide what you want to do and "the BIG content creator" him/herself
will make things clear for you to see.

I have ideas for how to make DesktopX feel more solid and
tons of ideas regarding WinCustomize, so if you want
to brainstorm, let me know.
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DesktopX should be developed more to update it's themeing capabilities. Since the widget boom, it seems that side has been abandoned/neglected. I had some themes I had started making, only to have to stop because the systray and taskbar in DX is very very basic. You can't even do double rows of items. And I know of a few other people who are dissapointed in DX's limitations with those 2 parts as well.
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It's incredibly powerful stuff

Yes but unfortunately not many people can harness these powers because of limited knowledge, ie writing scripts. I include myself in this.

How many people can say they are good script writers, have good graphics skills and create DesktopX themes? I know there are some out there but I guess not a great number.

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Gef -- indeed that is the issue.  Few people know how to do all three. 

That is also represents a failure on WC's part.  In the future, WinCustomize should serve as a meeting place where people can work together more easily.

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Yes, that is a point also. There are no teams of scripter & themer here as it is quite common with winamp for example. Also I would have thought DesktopX would get a bit of reputtion with the complete lack of updates on hoverdesk, a former strong competitor as I see it. There are really great hvd themes out there that could have been done in DesktopX in half of the time. What I also experienced with my (very basic) themes is when I finished one for a special version of DX the next came on that made the theme unusable and I had to start from the nearly beginning. Or I experienced crashes and lost patience.

What really really has to made sure IMHO is to have DX stable as a rock before implementing ANY new features. Although the seperate scripts are a very good thing. I have a registered version of ultraedit for example, that would be great as a script editor.


Themes : Universe Metal B-A-T was a goof example what I personally want DX to be : A tool to build Your desktop in a modular way. Unfortunately not many people got that. There are really nice themes out there, espicially by Gef, but I fear they are too complex for many users out there as they rapidly change the whole desktop. And my personal problem would be : There are nearly no fitting WB-Skins for them.

Another thing with DX Pro : The update cycles should be in the same manner as with the regular DX. Isn't there a chance to have it have betas like regular DX via OD ?
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hoverdesk, a former strong competitor

I agree, the menu system of Hoverdesk was brilliant. If only the 'right-click' here was as good.

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Well, there were tries to push and improve rc a little more, but there seemed to be a certain lack of 'interest'. Only a few ponts : Drag and Drop of Shortcuts, ability to SAVE configuration before losing menus out of nowhere... I will stop here as this is DX thread.
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Am not a developper so most of the above does not concern me. I would just like to see a program which does not crash regularly- where I can load a theme and it does not vanish or get jumbled up whenever I restart my PC. Quite a few times I have spent hours making a wonderful desktop layout which fits all my needs and then I restart my PC and half the info has disappeared and the rest of it is halfway across the screen. I pay $50 or so for this package and I am not happy about having the keystone of the package still behaving like a beta program. It is just not good enough- it is not acceptable for a premium package like this. Why do I have to use sysmetrics when I should be using desktopX?

The widget/object concept seems to have produced some nice improvements, but these are often memory hogs and to my mind are more like side-projects than part of desktopX itself.

I think first and foremost you should concentrate on making DesktopX less developer oriented and more customer oriented.
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That is also represents a failure on WC's part. In the future, WinCustomize should serve as a meeting place where people can work together more easily.


Yes, that is a point also. There are no teams of scripter & themer here as it is quite common with winamp for example. Also I would have thought DesktopX would get a bit of reputtion with the complete lack of updates on hoverdesk, a former strong competitor as I see it. There are really great hvd themes out there that could have been done in DesktopX in half of the time. What I also experienced with my (very basic) themes is when I finished one for a special version of DX the next came on that made the theme unusable and I had to start from the nearly beginning. Or I experienced crashes and lost patience.


Project pages would be an interesting feature at WC. People could create teams and set up projects. I know that there is nothing stopping people from doing that allready now, but if there was a premade system I think it'd encourage it.
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My opinion is that DX is fine the way it is... memory use aside for the moment...

I think all Stardock really has to do is go to the schools. Design schools and technology schools should all know who brad is by now.

In about 6 months this place would be teeming ith college and graduate students playing around with DX and other items.


I say thi because when I was in DeVry, not only were people inpressed, but were interested because the things they were learning made it easier to use the application to make stuff.
Back at my old school, this would be perfect for media and design.


Its like you can have the same zealots that Konfab has, but you got to reach out to the schools.

That is also represents a failure on WC's part. In the future, WinCustomize should serve as a meeting place where people can work together more easily.


That is the main reason why I made Skin This, a skin and design development site. If WinCusto had something like this, I would not have bothers putting in the time to make my own for people to use.
Reply #20 Top
would love to see someones DX desktop who does ray tracing or database work or all of the above!!



You know what is funny? DX could do that (well as far as I know, play with Access and stuff) when it was in the DX 1.0 stage.

LOL

To me, DX will be my savoir when the time comes. From my websites to doing consulting work. DX is going to be my main app. I decided that when it was back at version 1 and it hasn't changed.

I'm REALLY playing around with it for 2 of my non-profit sites. DX will be really important for those. From RSS feeds to actually interacting with the online database. Can you imagine having a desktop or a widget that interacts with your database?


I'm telling you, DX is the best thing in Stardock's arsonal. If I had more money for development, I would have a team of people working on stuff for me using DX right now.
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Sorry for another post back to back... I tried to edit my post but it wouldn't work.

DesktopX should be developed more to update it's themeing capabilities. Since the widget boom, it seems that side has been abandoned/neglected. I had some themes I had started making, only to have to stop because the systray and taskbar in DX is very very basic. You can't even do double rows of items. And I know of a few other people who are dissapointed in DX's limitations with those 2 parts as well.


I say that is true. I try work-arounds when it comes to that though...



Anyway, I thought about it some more and I do think having 2 different DX's works best; a DX run-time only and a DX developer tool.

DX Run-Time will have all sort of stuff made by Stardock and skinners who use DX Developer. This way it is custermer focused and them the skinners fwill want the DX developer tool to make the skins.... if I am not mistaken, it is sort of set up that way now.



I say:
Sell the DX RunTime (smaller foot print, easier configuraton and so forth) for a little money... make it a little bit hackable (you can do some stuff without the DX Developer tool) and done.

The Developer tool... instead of being 300 dollars, or 69 dollars, make it 49... maybe 39. Why? Becuase if no one is developing anything with it, then selling it on the level of Photoshop CS or Micromedia Flash won't help. It needs to get out there to become something that people use. Once it seems people are using is... BAM! Put it at a normal price (Basiclally, pull an XBOX... sold at a loss to get a foot hold in the market... you got to get in to show people what it is worth first).

As for DX Entrprise... keep it internal until there seems to be a craving or it. If someone wants to use DX at that level, then liscence it.
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That is also represents a failure on WC's part. In the future, WinCustomize should serve as a meeting place where people can work together more easily.



Now that is something I agree with whole heartedly!
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Project pages would be an interesting feature at WC. People could create teams and set up projects. I know that there is nothing stopping people from doing that allready now, but if there was a premade system I think it'd encourage it.




Something like how ArgoUML is developed?
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I think the main think Stardock needs to do is consider product consolidation. Too many different niche products. Object Desktop seems like a collection of tools that address different parts of similar problems, but not an integrated solution. This leaves users to decide what to invest their time learning. Frankly, with Media PCs potentially becoming a huge market, I think skinning and tweaking are just in their infancy. The winners will be those who provide an integrated toolset that makes this possible quickly. People are smarter these days, but we all have less time. Permitting javascript and VBscript is great. It would also be good for the power-users to submit script skeletons for major functions for people with less time. Provide them as templates. The plug-ins for creating an MP3 player are an great example.

If I were King, I'd take a kernel product like Desktop X, make sure that it creates robust and stable output, then add lots of modular extensions. Want an Object Bar menu? Great, use Desktop X and this plug-in to create them. Want to create an entire desktop? Have the entire workflow set up around Desktop X. But when its done, create a desktop that is rock solid. I do like the idea of using a separate image editor (like Photoshop). My feeling is that this product should not try to compete in any area except customizing the GUI and enhancing the desktop functionality.

Pricing is always tough, but if you get above $99 you are entering a realm that will probalby see fewer customers and less contributors to help sell the product.

Finally - I ran into Stardock by accident. I was looking for a launcher, Googled that, and found Object Bar. Then I found Stardock and a whole world of great extensibility opened up. I've referred quite a few people since, but how many folks are out there who would LOVE something like this but simply don't know about it? Just my $0.02.
Reply #25 Top
I have to agree with joetheblow and halhamilton. Keep this powerful little toy aimed at the GUI and desktop enhancement. Leave the Enterprise version in the back for developers, get the teams going as mentioned. Hal is absolutely right, even though Stardock has been around doing skinning for years, the genre is still an infant and it needs FOOD. I think the next thing in GUI is gonna be 3D interaction, or as close as it can get to 3D. But Stardock can't just drop the Object Desktop, because that is what brought a lot of the customers to them. Can't let one of their own products' ultimate development result in another becoming obsolete. And as yet, there aren't a whole lot of people that I can see who have collegiate backgrounds in graphics or coding. This makes the main body of customers less likely to use DX to its fullest, without some sort of class. You have to already know what can be done and what you want to be done in order to create a great interface. A lot of the authors who created full desktops with DX no longer author them, moderating or busy running a website of their own. Hal has another idea there: templates. I think most of the fun of skinning is the ability to change what you have, no matter who authored it. And simplicity does play a major part. It has to be fast, anymore, and light in the footprint.

Not knowing the diffences between DX and DX enterprise, I wouldn't say how much to charge. But it seems likely that if you price it in the range of $59-$79 you'll have a chance to build a large body of customers. And, yes, hit the schools. There are many sites run that deal with product interface individuality. This whole DX thing could just widen the market.