I'd see an economic factor as more use - installation and maintenance costs, possibly per module, with the more exotic modules costing a lot more! How much would it cost to install and maintain a party palace, for example? (It also opens up the possibility of some of the "repair" techs being used to lower maintenance costs! If it's properly looked after, it'll need replacing less often!!)

Alex


~SDC~

You could have a SB type. One for cultural, military etc. At the moment you get all these benefits from one SB. If a SB had to be specific to one area then several SBs would have to be build and therefore maintained.

The one issue with this is defence. I would sugest that defensive modules can be built on any SB.

So at the moment you have 1 starbase with all modules with maintenance*1, 1 constructer required for each defensive module

Under the new system you may need 5 SB's to get the same benefit therefore maintenace * 5, plus 5 constructers per defensive module to protect them all.

If there is a cap based on population then gaining planets becomes so much more important and so will +% to planet quality. If the cost increases with number of starbases them money becomes the important issue.
Either way there will be a workaround. The trouble is you'll end up being forced to use the workaround rather than have the freedom you do now. Just look how many player start a game to find the yellow stars, then start again from a save.

I like the idea that each module that you add to a starbase should have a maintenance cost associated with it. Maybe the Defensive modules should be free, but just like you don't necessarily want to build an Embassy on most planets unless there's a specific need because the cost/benefit ratio isn't sufficient, you also don't necessarily want to slap every possible extension onto a starbase.

At a minimum there should probably be the base cost of 10 per starbase, plus the maintenance cost of however many constructors have been used to build up the starbase.

Then you can take it further and say that a Party Palace Base module costs 2 maintenance, and a full-fledged Party Palace costs 7, while the Satellite WaterPark costs 3, etc.

Might make you consider a little more carefully whether you really want to deck out all your SBs with +343 culture....

Jan -- that was my idea!

by the way, I read that a per-module maintenance model was considered. The decision was a flat rate that made it more difficult to build multiple starbases early.

Oh, there should still be a decent base cost, too.

What about the possibility that a resource should have a cost multiplier associated with it? Building a starbase on a Military resource might cost you 30 instead of 10; Morale resources might cost 20, etc. That would make it a little more expensive to take advantage of all the different resources....

I don't have problems with limiting the number of starbases, but could be possible to create a ship that can conquer or assault other races starbases without destroying them, sort of a way to balance the presence of starbases in one sector, why destroy them when you can conquer them?

Picard, Captain.
Authorization 1-01-00-1
Initiate self destruct sequence.

Capture my ass. LOL

Why not add maintance/running costs for starbases. The number of modules determines the level of the maintenance/running cost. Thus linking starbases to a financial burden would limit the number of starbases an empire can afford to run. I'm not talking 1 per module but costs at the same sort of levels as Excaliber ships - or greater. Perhaps the type of modules could influence the costs - military add total cost of modules, economic modules could cost less as they are generating income...

~SDC~

Most ppl have stated on the boards that by mid-late game, money is NOT a problem. Therefore added expence for SBs will probably not cause any limiting in the number of SB in the empire. I can see the point in frogboy's suggestion. With that in mind, another thought line would be to only allow SBs in sectors that you control a planet in, or one that has an open resource in it (controlling a resource would have the same effect as controlling a planet in that sector). You would not have to have the majority of influence there, just and established presence (or open resource).

If you wanted to culture bomb a sector, you would have to capture one of the systems (or one next door) by traditional warfare first. And yes, I agree the culture "bug" is a valid point, but again, I feel the point of this thread was to see what might be the best way to limit the number of SBs. When I am rolling in several hundred B per turn, have spending at 100%, I could care less what a SB costs.

If cost is to be the controlling factor in building SBs, I still think my previous thought is a good one . If it is going to cost me 100B more a turn for my 20th SB, then I might reconsider it. Maybe not.

Limit by upkeep cost (either by per module,or multiply maint for each additional). and/or
Limit by required sector presence. and/or
Limit by population or total # planets controlled.

I think there should be a decision on which way this fish is going to flop. Once that is decided, then actual numbers/costs/ect can be fine tuned.

Here's something you'll all hate.

Have the starbases operated by the inhabitants of your empire. Someone has to run this huge structure and all these modules your putting onto it. Have SB subtract population from surrounding systems in the sector its in and the sectors near it. As you get further away from populated sectors the amount of population willing to be relocated drops, making it more difficult to build SB far away from your populated worlds.
I've heard rumors that some of you like to "space" your excees population. Instead put them to use running trade modules. Want to culture bomb? Well you better start the mass exodus to the far reaches, cuz no one is going to buy your crap if there is no one to sell it.
So there is no actual population cap. Only how much of your people your willing to ship off planet and away from shipbuilding, improvements, and paying taxes.

I like that idea Nomo, and so I must add to it: Why not have little shuttles running between the starbases and the nearest planets, kinda like the little trade ships do on a trade route. In order to keep the starbase functioning at full capacity the shuttles must arrive at the starbase on regular intervals. If too many months go by without a resupply shuttle, the starbase effectiveness starts to drop. This way, the further a starbase is away from a planet the longer the shuttle runs are and thus the less effective the starbase is. A new class of upgrade module could be created which would increase the number of shuttle runs between the starbase and nearest planet(s). The more shuttles you have running, the more effective the starbase.

~SDC~

That is exactly my opinion! You could still do culture-flipping strategies but you would have to put much more effort in it.

The example becomes even more convinving with maxed out +350% SBs.

100%+350%+350%+350%+350%+350%=1850%
((((100%+350%)+350%)+350%)+350%)+350%=184528%

With the 2nd formulae that is currently in use u get more influence with 2 +350% SBs than with the 1st formulae and 5 SBs!

I don't think I'd like starbases limited to sectors where planets or resources are. Thi shas nothing to do with logistics, prevents using constructors to extend range and severely hampers culture bombing (I never build my culture starbases in the same sector, I don't want to be have the game lose a feature for a bug that others abuse).
I think a flat-out number of modules per sector logistics ability would be enough:
You could claim all resources you want (say there are 3 in sector), but can't mine them all effectively unless you boost your logistics. And if you do, then you can't build other thing sthere because there are already too many maintenance ships, collisions, etc. so you have to improve your logistics first.
It doesn't limit the number of starbases, but does limit the number of useful starbases per sector.
[Message Edited]

I hate to be the good grammer fairy here, but I have to mention, your math is so very wrong

I dont like the idea of limiting the number of starbases (even if i normaly dont have many). I think the cost depending on modules is good.

What about limiting the size of starbases (like max of 10 modules). So harvester cant be defended properly and bases staring with weapons dont enhance the trade... The sizelimit could be a enhanceable skill like logistics.

Ad total population: Keep in mind that the population in the german version is times 1000. So one easily gets a total of 600,000 billions on the largest map!

Nomo Mo: I am sure my Math is not wrong!

100%+350% = 4.5 That's the factor for 1 SB...

For 5 SB's it's 4.5*4.5*4.5*4.5*4.5 or 4.5^5 or 1845!

And a factor of 1845 means +184400%!

I do the same like LDiCesare! Building more than 1 Culture SB in a sector I consider as a bugusing exploit.

There's no sense for me playing the game that way. Everyone can win with this "strategy". But if I ask me if Metaverse Score is more important than fun while playing the game I must admit: UNDER NO CICUMSTANCES!

I am currently winning a Gigantic Painful with only 2 colonized planets and no culture flipping. (Okay it will be an Alliance Victory with the Altarians as Allies who have at least 4 times the military strength than anyone else )

Nomo Mo:



Sorry to say it but the only thing wrong in your post is your definition (and spelling!) of grammar--it has nothing to do with math!

AIL.ST,

nothing is wrong with your math now that you're using multiplication signs instead of plus signs....

Anyway, though, I just had another logistically-oriented idea that might be interesting (although it may also be more difficult to implement in the AI again)... but this is related to ships, not starbases:

Each ship should be classed as a small, medium, or large ship. Planets would then need to build certain improvements before they can build ships of a given size. You can't build a dreadnought if your stardock is only big enough to manage frigates....

I say we just get rid of starbases all together and just make love...not war.

I dont know if this has been suggested, but what about if you could only have one kind of each module per sector, exept the resorce mining ones of course.

I think they should fix multiplication to addition. That will help. Next, don't limit bases by number, use the logistics(topic right) to give either free or inexpensive bases based on the (cube root of pop/10000)/15 or n times planets(say 2 to start with a couple of techs that increase this). Next make it expensive to exceed the logistical amount. Follow that up with a terrorstart cost-like fee for each "maximum" item within each group(party palace, ultra mines, etc.). Also, make a constructor cost a logistic point. You could also triple the cost of all constructor's maintenence if the logistics are exceeded(30 bc/each).

(cube root of pop/10000)/15:

1B = 3
10B = 6
50B = 11
100B = 14
500B = 24
1T = 30
2T = 38
5T = 52

B

Whatever is done I don't we should be limited with a hard cap like trade routes. If there is to be a cap, make it tech based so at least it can be modded later to +1 SB or +1SB/planet or whatever.

B

[Message Edited]

Well I dont really think we should even have the trade limit so I agree with you generally

The addition of logistics would make this game better. I think the object should be not to just control the number of star bases, but also their size. This has been mentioned by others before. Look at it like this, if I have a basic star base in the sector with Sol, it would not require too much effort to keep it supplied, like our current space station.

But if I have a fully loaded base, full defense, culture, mining, etc. that is 5 sectors away that would require a major amount of freight being sent each month to keep it operating.

I feel this might be a fourth silder on the economy, which is just a subtraction. i.e if was set to 10%, then only 90% is available for normal production and research. You could over ride this by reducing it to say 5%, but then your bases should start to falling apart due to lack of maintence and even blow up if not corrected.

This could lead to some very interesting moral issues during the hard times. If there is no improvements being made at home but all the production is going to support a star base, would you be happy!!!

You could alos make it a political issue. For example why would the pacific party build military star bases in some one else's sector? This would be against what the party stands for and it should show up in the polls.

Same idea on the number of bases. If you keep building more bases the logitsic slider keeps going up so that eventually you may be spending 20, 30 or 40% of your budget on building and sending freight to the bases.

The logistic slider should be set by the computer to provide enough support to keep the bases in their current operational status, let's say 10%. If the player reduced the slider to 5% for several turns and the bases were at 90% hit points,Trade bonus, culture bonus, etc. then it was moved back to 10% the bases would stay at the 90% hit point level. In order to bring it back up to full operational status the slider would have to be moved to 15% for several turns.

I think instead of an absolute number of bases, the charge for each base would be based on distance from your star systems and the number of modules. I think the idea of having techs to improve your logitisic ability is great. I would look at it as a reducion in the amount of production required to keep you bases operational. Same effect, just a differant way of getting there.

If you really wished to make it complex, you could build in something which took into account the developement of the closest star system.. Again a well developed system would have more available to ship. This could be based the the difficult level you were playing at.

One more example, if the closest system to a base is brand spanking new it would not have the infrastructure developed to transship massive amounts of freight.

I think that Frogboy was on the right track the first time. It should take a lot of people pushing a lot of crates on to many tramp freighters to keep the star bases running.

Also just think of how prirates would love the ability to steal a tramp freighter or two as they are making their way to the star bases. Also this could be a really neat way for the weak military guy to take out the strong military force. Just keep the freighters from arriving and the star bases dissaprear.

Just an idea, which might be way too much programing for the expansion, but maybe for version 1.3?