On Secularism/Atheism/Neo-Darwinism As A Religion

Like there's a difference?

Way to follow Pascal's Wager.

~Zoo

Ah, but you fail to prove anything else.

I personally hypocritically despise Pascal's Wager.

I do like Pascal, though.

So you'd rather put faith in something that you can't prove, period. Meh, sorry, but that sounds like  bunch of bull hokey. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Also, I have no religion. My skepticism is soley based on the inability to prove the existance of God. I mean I do think that there is something out there greater than us, but I don't think of it as you do. For me, I just try to live a life that I feel is right; be honest, hard working, etc...

 

1. Who knows, at this moment *NO ONE* can prove that. All there is what the Christian Bible says, or the Koran, or the other various religious texts say. In my opinion, to believe whatever they say as truth requires faith, not evidence.

 

2. Who knows. Personally, I find both science and religion to be flawed. On one hand you have the big bang, on the other you have an almight God, but the question I have...if either of those are correct, then what about before them? If things need a source, then where did God come from? He can't, logically, just been. Likewise, where did the big bang come from? It couldn't have just happened, and neither could whatever caused it.

 

3. How can you say you have evidence of what you believe in? Personally, I just live life and don't bother proving it, because it's a personal thing. I'm Diest in that aspect. For that matter, why bother having to shove "prove it" into each other's noses? If you're happy with your beliefs, then okay, but they're your beliefs, right?

 

On evidence: Can you give evidence, direct observable evidence concerning the existance of your God? I mean you can prove with evidence that a rock is hard, it's there, you can touch it, feel it, test it, etc... As for evidence of God? Eh, can't do much with it.

 

 

All I need as evidence is existence.

*sigh*...you just don't get science, do you?

~Zoo

But what evidence is there to prove his existence? You cannot say logically that God exists because he does. That's faulty. You're belief that the evidence for God is that he exists, is flawed, because you cannot say that A exists just because of B.

Dude, seriously, I understand and even share some of your beliefs, but faith without logic or rational is just blind faith. Your God gave you a brain, obviously for it to be used, and how can you be using it (i.e. thinking, logic, etc...) when you makes statements like you do, that's not thinking.

By your logic, I could say that the supreme creator is a pink fluffy bunny and it'd be just fine, because the evidence is my faith/belief in its existence.



Not many do really.

Meh, I know you can say all that, but can you prove anything?

Life's too complex to be random.

From a pure standpoint of reason consciousness is only a means of awareness of existence, so consciousness cannot pre-exist existence. A consciousness aware only of itself is a contradiction.

If the bible is the infallible word of god then god sure doesn't care for intelligent inquisitive creations. He creates existence in 6 days a few thousand years ago with the false appearance of extreme age for what reason? He leaves no evidence of a soul or afterlife or anything that suggest there's anything outside of natural processes at work in existence. In the bible he exercises his powers not by using the omnipotent powers necessary to create existence, but through natural processes like plagues and floods. Even needing Noah to gather up his creations to save them from himself. Just turn everyone he's piss't at back into dirt, that can't be as hard as creating a hundred billion galaxies. He fails to reveal himself to his more modern creations as he did 2000+ years ago when we could now see and understand and spread his ministry to everyone instead of having to rely on ancient unverifiable and unreliable witnesses.

He sure does favor those that can suspend or are incapable of reason or logic and it just keeps getting worse for those whom want to believe but can't numb their brains. We're not far from synthesizing chromosomes and booting up life from digital information and inert chemicals. That will be a sad day because it will for me at least crush the dream of heaven. They better cure death by then.

Can you?

And yes, life is complex. But that doesn't mean that it has to have been created by a God. It all comes down to personal belief, you believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.

I don't have to prove anything. I just have to prove two things that God makes very hard. That He exists, and that the universe had a beginning.

One is self-explanitory. The other... well, God insists on free will, so he makes himself scarce.

I submit that life is too complex to have been created all at once.

Besides, life is never random...natural selection pretty much dictates how life works.

~Zoo

Granted, the latter is true, something somewhere happened, and now here we are. Actually, that's what I'm trying to say, is if you're going to put forth that God is real, be ready to (attempt) to prove it.

Eh, I'm not so sure if he insists on free will. I often wonder, if there is indeed a "God," what he thinks about his creations and the result of being given free will.

I'm skeptical by nature, yet do believe that there is something, somewhere better than here and now, but I won't even begin to assume I know what it is. For all we know, what created everything, your God, is nothing more than an organic organism.

Ah, but life was not created all at once, it took six days.

Within six days even I can list off all the stuff needed for life and the universe.

And God is better than me.

1. What did we come from?  Most likely, from space as the anceint earth (billions of years old, not thousands) was pelted by meteors and other space debris.
2. Did that start from nothing or does it have a cause?   See above.
3. How can you say you have evidence to justify that?  Yes, I can. Science bears this out. Can you? You have a book (bible) that was written by man, influenced by thousands of preceeding years from other 'gods' and 'beliefs'. It's a book... just a book. Full of hate for 'others' that aren't the 'Chosen People'. Are you aware of the Mitharas cult? It existed many years before jesus was born, and it was EXACTLY the 'virgin birth' story, with a kindly 'god' who also gets maryterd and rises after 3 days and goes to heaven.

 

Different suggestions have been made.  One answer to the infiniteness question is a cyclical universe that goes from big bang to big contraction, but scientists have shown that the expansion of the universe is accelerating.  A subsequent contraction is unlikely.

 

What is significant about that?  If scientists had an agenda against religion, like so many of these zombies propose, they would have covered up that info.  Being honest was more important to them - not on a moral level, but because that is what science is, and without that rigorous honesty when looking at facts, science isn't science. 

 

THAT is when you could call it a religion.

I saw a picture of a galaxy the other day, and it looked like a cross. Is it a message from God, a hoax, a coincidence...? Who knows? Does it matter? Does the picture change with time? I don't know.

Science should be honest. That is what science is - honestly looking at the facts. The problem is that, sometimes, science takes one effect and extends it beyond what they've seen. Like, they see mutations occuring. They see dogs of different breeds. They see birds that are completely different but have common ancestors. That's micro evolution. But then they extend that to go from a single-celled organism up to a human being.

 

Erathoniel,

I don't know how much you really do because of your faith. I don't really know how strong your faith is. But it seems to like you treat your faith as a last resort, something to grasp when you don't understand the world.

Education is the key, not faith. Understanding science will help you understand what science is and what science isn't, opening the gates to knowing what you need faith for and where you can rely on facts.

I can answer your three questions, although I am not an atheist.

 

1. What did we come from?

I don't know.

1. Did that start from nothing or does it have a cause?

I don't know.

1. How can you say you have evidence to justify that?

I don't have any evidence.

 

But let me ask you three questions.

1. What did G-d come from?

2. Did G-d start from nothing or does He have a cause?

3. How can you say you have evidence to justify that?

 

Using your method of finding the way between science and faith, you will simply end up with the same questions without answers one level removed.

Instead of trying to find out about life, you will resign to believing that G-d cannot be understood. How is that useful? What kind of appreciation of creation is that?

 

Where did the Big Bang come from? Science doesn't know. Once a scientist makes up a story to explain such a thing without evidence, the scientist stops being a scientist and becomes a priest or prophet. Maybe G-d told him the truth? How would we know?

 

Compare yeast, a single celled organism, to a human cell...they're both eukaryotes. You'll notice that they're suprisingly similar.

Also, you see some unicellular organisms working together to increase their chances of survival. They form a community and can link together into mats and the like. Some cells become specialized carrying out specific actions- motility, storage, digestion...stuff like that. It's not a stretch to say that eventually some cells become so specialized it turns into an organ. If a bunch of different organs get together, you start having bodies...and the sum of the parts makes up a new being.

If you take cell samples from the human body, you can grow them in culture. The only reason they can't exist by themselves is that they've become dependent on the community of the human body for its nutritional intake. Supplement an appropriate agar and you can grow several tissue cultures in a dish. It's best to view your body as the sum of trillions of little organisms all working together.

~Zoo

 Faith can answer any of my questions. I can prove my faith better than anyone can prove anything else.

Highlander, all you said is regurgitated crap. Sorry, it had to be said. Way to shirk the question.

Where did the life in space come from?

This is sort of like an extraterrestrial view. More ways than science or religion to explain the universe, Jyth. But as you've hit on...it's kind of a circular argument.

~Zoo

 

No one has any doubts about your faith - you make that clear with every unfounded argument you make.  You'd HAVE to have the most outstanding faith to believe the things you believe. 

 

Well awesome.  You're bound to get good seats at the Apocaplyse while us heathens get chucked one by one into the eternal fire.  Make sure to bring your camera and some popcorn!  Wouldn't want to miss anything!  Make sure you cheer loudly when I go into my triple gainer.  I'm going with a vengeance!  If I'm going to hell, I'm going with 10s across the board, my friend.

 

If for some whacky reason God prefers me over you (which I actually have faith that if he exists at all, he totally does), I'll put in a good word for you.  Now I wonder...with your indefatigable faith...what will you do if the situation is reversed?

 

 

Ah, but what is a day to your God?

I never said that it was a 24 hour period. He can live wherever he wants, I won't stop him.

He is omnipresent, though, which would lead me to believe it's either a human day or an astronomically huge amount of time.

Plus, even if I am wrong and we have no purpose and there is no afterlife, I can't lose. And if I just chose wrong, I am happy with that, for I chose what I could prove, and I have no regrets.

No...you honestly can't. Even I can't do it and I'm studying it all.

~Zoo