The reason bad things happen » Forum Post by erathoniel

How does eating Kosher prevent any of the following 'Plagues spread, earthquakes, flooding, tornadoes, and fires'?

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How does eating Kosher prevent any of the following 'Plagues spread, earthquakes, flooding, tornadoes, and fires'?

Kosher food is, in general, healthier food, and it can prevent some diseases. For instance, shellfish, when cooked improperly, can be harmful, and Israelites definitely did not know how to cook shellfish.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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How does eating Kosher prevent any of the following 'Plagues spread, earthquakes, flooding, tornadoes, and fires'?

It doesn't.

We live in a fallen world and it's evil. So I guess the question everyone wants to know is why doesn't God eradicate evil? If he did, there goes free choice. If he destroyed every opportunity for choice he destroys every opportunity for love as well. So therefore he allows evil for the highest good.

For God to destroy evil is evil. Instead God defeated evil thru Calvery. And choice lives on but evil's days are numbered and weighed and found wanting.

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I don't think we live in an evil or fallen world. I think God is still the number one power and presence not evil.

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Very interesting article Erath. But I think it's a bit easier than that. KCF pritty much said it, basically bad things happen because life is not perfect. Things happen and all you can do is learn from them so in reality, bad things can be good things at the same time.

I do however find it interesting that you and KFC sorta have different opinions about Basmas question. Goes to show just how different ones "interpretation" of God's words can b, even when bot of you seem to be close to equal in you faith.

I do have 2 things to pick on from both you and KFC:

First, we have free will. This is our greatest loss, for it leads to all our suffering.

I don't think free will is a loss. Suffering only happens because people allow it to happen. We all know death will come to us all sooner or later, yet we still cry and ask why they had to die. We all know fire burns yet we still play with it. It is our free will that gives up our humanity, our ability to love (and to hate as sad as it may seem) but some of the best things in life (such as love, happiness and freedom) would not exist without freee will because having the ability to hate, be unhappy and be locked up allows love, happiness and freedom to exist. And how could we love God and love did not exist because free will did not exist? The only suffering we can not control is physical pain and even with today's modern medicine there are some pains we can not control.

We live in a fallen world and it's evil

So you are saying God created a fallen evil world? And here I though God could do no wrong? But I'm sure you're gonna blame humanity for this fallen and evil world, right? But then didn't God create humanity as well? Kinda interesting how some see God as unable to make mistakes yet his greatest creation (according to us humans), humanity, is plagued with errors. But that is were free will comes in. God seemed to want things to be this way, otherwise he would not have created us this way. Don't you think?

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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I do however find it interesting that you and KFC sorta have different opinions about Basmas question

not really Charles. Erath was talking of the OT times and I'm speaking of now. I believe back in the OT times not eating Kosher foods could have led to sickness which could lead to plagues and then eventually death...but not sure how tornados, floods and fires fit in. In fact they don't. That's why I said what I said.

So you are saying God created a fallen evil world?

No I didn't say that. I said we live in a fallen evil world. Big diff. When God created the world, it was perfect and good.

But I'm sure you're gonna blame humanity for this fallen and evil world, right?

well do you think it's man's fault or God's fault? Do you believe man is perfect and God is not? Who is the one with sin? Who is the one without sin?

God seemed to want things to be this way, otherwise he would not have created us this way. Don't you think?

Yes. God created a free perfect world. Because of that freedom comes choices. God knew this when he created us. He gave us the freedom to choose. Otherwise as you stated, how could we be free to love and obey Him?

I think God is still the number one power and presence not evil.

I do too but I also believe that God has given this world up to Satan who has corrupted the earth and mankind with sin. That's why we're promised in the book of Revelation a "new heaven and a new earth." This new earth will not be marred with sin. And we will have learned our lesson never to repeat it again. No pandora boxes will be opened this time.

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But god created us with the brains that we use to decide what we do, god could have created us with brains that have free will but a greater desire to worship him. God must have set up in our brains the desire for some people not to worship him and therefore to be punished for it.

He must have know that when he made Adam and Eve that they would fall as he is perfect and knows every consequence of his action.

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Yes, He did create Adam and Eve with knowledge that they would fall, but He did not make them fall.

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But he did make them in such as way so that they would. If I make a bridge without enough supports who is to blame for it falling down the bridge or the maker?

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Third, we need a test. It may not earn us anything, but if we go through all the trials of life, we will come out stronger, and we will never be broken unless we give in.

Let's consider for just a moment a few examples of 'bad things' that could (and do) happen to people. (1) An aeroplane crashes, and all the occupants are killed. (2) Thousands of peasants die in a third world epidemic, or drown in a tsunami. (3) An entire community is wiped out when a dormant volcano unexpectedly erupts.

Erathoniel, I'd be interested in your thoughts on these scenarios. Specifically, what is the 'test' in each case to which those involved have been subjected? Were they 'broken' because they decided to 'give in', or have they indeed 'come out stronger'?

This is not a dig, Erathoniel - I'm in earnest. That said, I'm hoping you can muster a response that is a little more considered than the old 'God moves in mysterious ways' chestnut that some elect to wheel out when their arguments are subjected to such scrutiny; it's always struck me as little more than a hugely convenient cop-out.

+1

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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If I make a bridge without enough supports who is to blame for it falling down the bridge or the maker?

the maker of course....but in your case in making this bridge...did you supply a safety net at the same time to catch any when they fell knowing they would fall when they chose to cross this faulty brige?

God did.

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I would also be instrested in hearing the answer to that question.

KFC - god made Adam and Eve (and set up the world for the rest of us) knowing that he made them in such as a way so that they would make the choices they made which include the choice to eat the apple - when he made them he made them to make their choices and he must have know how they would make them. In the bridge analogy the maker made the saftey net knowing that it would never be used as the bridge/people had been designed not to use it.

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If you are dead, it wasn't a test.

If you survive, however, there's something more happening. You are being given an opportunity to grow, or to wallow. Every single time.

Now just so we get the roles straight, Satan is causing this disaster in your life, not God. Satan wants you to wallow. God knows it's an opportunity for your growth, and allows Satan to do have his way with us.

God works in very obvious ways.

Romans 8:28
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

How it's done is infinitely variable, but the outcome of everything is good to those who love God. So why do bad things happen? Because Satan wants you to wallow in it, and question God, instead of growing in your faith and drawing closer to the one who loves you. So if you wallow, and no good comes from it, the reason a bad thing happened (instead of a good thing happening) is you.

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How it's done is infinitely variable, but the outcome of everything is good to those who love God. So why do bad things happen? Because Satan wants you to wallow in it, and question God, instead of growing in your faith and drawing closer to the one who loves you.

But Jythier, this doesn't make sense when considered in respect of the examples I gave above. Yes, I know you also say:

If you are dead, it wasn't a test.

But if it wasn't a test, what was it? The title of this thread is, after all, 'The reason bad things happen'. So what was the reason in these cases?

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But didn't god make satan and designed him to do the things he does now?

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But didn't god make satan and designed him to do the things he does now?

Bsmas seems to have the same train of thought that I do. I believe in God, I believe he is all powerful and I believe he created Earth and everything on it. What I find hard to believe is that people make it seem that he could do no wrong yet plenty of things on this planet exist to prove the contrary. But the truth is one can actually see it in a different light.

It has always been my belief that life is basically a test (sorta what Erath said, sorta). We were put on this planet as a test to see if we are worthy of Heaven. Life is just like school, you start with nothing and have to work to earn you A's. My point is bad things happen because it's life's way of testing who has the will to do what is right afterwards. Even handy-cap people (those who can) try to go on in life no matter their disability. Those who die in unusual ways (such as Furry's examples), maybe it was just their time and their test had ended, only God truly knows. The only reason Furry is curious about these examples (I believe) is because these "bad things" we very very terrible "bad things" that caused a lot of pain and suffering with no chance to learn from it.

But this is just my opinion.

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The only reason Furry is curious about these examples (I believe) is because these "bad things" we very very terrible "bad things" that caused a lot of pain and suffering with no chance to learn from it.

I'm not quite sure what your belief about the reason for my 'curiosity' has to do with the issue at hand, CharlesCS. Anyway, let me reiterate the point I was trying to make. In the scenarios I describe, and countless others anyone could cite, individuals die without being 'tested', and through no fault of their own making.

Those who die in unusual ways (such as Furry's examples), maybe it was just their time and their test had ended ...

Consider those who die in aeroplane crashes, earthquakes or floods. Many of them will be children, babies, perhaps as yet unborn. How were they tested?

... only God truly knows.

The very cop-out I referred to earlier, I'm afraid. One cannot, on one hand, argue that bad things can be explained, yet on the other claim divine mystery. That's called having your cake and eating it.

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If this entire planet was created for the sole reason of testing our souls then why should god bother as he will be able to figure out what each of us would do in any given situation and simply put us in the correct afterlife?

Unborn people who die because of miscarriages. Will they passed or failed their tests when they have had no chance to do anything?

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Will they passed or failed their tests when they have had no chance to do anything?

They haven't reached an age of understanding, and therefore are not held accountable. Same with 1 year olds through whatever age they are capable of understanding.

But if it wasn't a test, what was it? The title of this thread is, after all, 'The reason bad things happen'. So what was the reason in these cases?

I don't consider death to be a 'bad thing' to the person who died. Everyone is going to die someday, after all. The 'bad thing' happened to the people who lived.

It has always been my belief that life is basically a test (sorta what Erath said, sorta). We were put on this planet as a test to see if we are worthy of Heaven. Life is just like school, you start with nothing and have to work to earn you A's.

If it's a test, we all failed. The only one who ever 'passed' the life-test was Jesus, and that's why he's so important.

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I don't consider death to be a 'bad thing' to the person who died. Everyone is going to die someday, after all. The 'bad thing' happened to the people who lived.

What exactly are you saying here, Jythier? It reads to me as though you're arguing that there is no explanation needed when people die in aeroplane crashes, earthquakes, floods, war, famine etc., because death is not a 'bad thing'.

Why would God allow so many people to be born, only to be subsequently wiped out without so much as a 'by your leave', and through no fault of their own? That smacks of cruelty to me.

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That smacks of cruelty to me.

Of course it does, if you think that this life is all there is.

What exactly are you saying here, Jythier? It reads to me as though you're arguing that there is no explanation needed when people die in aeroplane crashes, earthquakes, floods, war, famine etc., because death is not a 'bad thing'.

The explanation is found in the survivors.

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But he did make them in such as way so that they would. If I make a bridge without enough supports who is to blame for it falling down the bridge or the maker?

Ah, yes, but don't you like having free will? How much fun is it to make a robot to serve you, when you can have fully inteligent beings to do so?

But didn't god make satan and designed him to do the things he does now?

Yes, God made Satan, but with free will, and Satan fell, just like man.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Satan fell, just like man

to be exact....Satan fell like lightening!

Satan wasn't created Satan (adversary) but he was created as Lucifer (a beautiful Cherub) and most likely God's head angel and pride was his downfall.

It's almost like God made him too good for his own wings.

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I'm not quite sure what your belief about the reason for my 'curiosity' has to do with the issue at hand, CharlesCS. Anyway, let me reiterate the point I was trying to make. In the scenarios I describe, and countless others anyone could cite, individuals die without being 'tested', and through no fault of their own making.

I get your point but Jythier pretty much answered that for me.

The very cop-out I referred to earlier, I'm afraid. One cannot, on one hand, argue that bad things can be explained, yet on the other claim divine mystery. That's called having your cake and eating it.

I don't see it as a cop-out. I see it as we don't know, plain and simple. But if we believe in God and believe he is all mighty and all knowing, then only he knows.

If this entire planet was created for the sole reason of testing our souls then why should god bother as he will be able to figure out what each of us would do in any given situation and simply put us in the correct afterlife?

Just because you know what the end result will be does not mean you will not let others reach it for themselves. The purpose is not for God to chose, it's for us to chose for ourselves.

If it's a test, we all failed. The only one who ever 'passed' the life-test was Jesus, and that's why he's so important.

I doin't see it that way Jythier. I don't see life as the test to be Jesus or the perfect man. I see it as being "good enough". I mean why would anyone believe in Heaven and Hell if, by your comments, we all deserve Hell? We all know that it is in our human nature to not be able to follow the word of God perfectly, so obviously God does not seek perfection, he seeks those who at least made the attempt. That is how I see it.

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I thought the whole point was that god was chosing those obayed his dicats?

KFC- if Satan fell because he had too much pride who created him to have all that pride?

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