Borders, to be or not to be?

there has been discussion (by testers rather than anything confirmed stardock i think) that sector ownership could be used as an interesting strategic gameplay enhancer where sector owners could set 'ships keep out' or 'allies only' or 'pay a toll' or whatever for that matter

mind you this could really screw up the gameplay ballance

I think the AI path finding would be the hardest part of this. Still the ability to ban war ships / constructors from entering your space would be very nice!

Paul.

Paul said "the ability to ban war ships / constructors from entering your space would be very nice!"

I find this very unrealistic. It can't even be done here today on our singular planet. In a galactic scope, if someone wanted to establish boundaries in space, how could they possibly keep other races out. Galactic space is just too vast. Any attempt to put something like this into the game, IMO, would just make the game too unbelievable.

Space is free. You own stars and their planets.

Maybe there could be some sort of "escort" involved, if a military unit from another race wishes to pass through your space he can request it. If you answer "yes" the unit can pass through as usuall but his weapons would be "disabled" reflecting the escort guarding its journey, so he wont be able to attack anything or anyone as long as he is in your space. The borders could maybe count more for the Majors, so that the space belonging to you could actually have a Minor race inside your borders. If another Major race wishes to attack this minor for some reason he would first have to request Rights of Passage, but for the weapons to work he also have to state that it is an Expeditionary Force and for wich planet it is intended to be used on. This would make the ship able to use it weapons inside your borders.

Ted: Not quite true, that would be like saying; The land is free, you own the city.

Even in space there would be some sort of rader probing the vast darkness. This would make you aware of the units entering you space.

Quote:
"It can't even be done here today on our singular planet." Cmdr. Lucky Jack
It can´t? I would say that the space here on our planet is VERY controlled, everything from airplanes to submarines is constantly beeing monitored.

I doubt that the ships you control in the game is only ships in space, the borders would be controlled by small scouts with advanced radars who constantly patrols for incursions into your space.

it would make sensor drones useful and allow more political plays.

i.e you could start a war because X planet joined your civ but it is in Y's territory thus it is a valid excuse to annex the territory.

besides i still dont think its likely any race would allow you to send in a fleet of warships deep into there territory without them being very annoyed and trying to stop them.

i.e currently i have no use for sensor drones and only keep ships on my planets during peacetime. this would give people incentive to station warships on there borders and add a whole new depth to the game.

Sector ownership may evolve in importance over time but it really boils down to how many MINUTES between turns do you guys want to wait while the pathfinding and AI strategy tries to churn stuff based on having certain squares it can and can't go into based on political issues.

Well I rather play a slow fun game than a fast boring game
I know the pathfinding is an important issue, but I am sure it is in capable hands.
And I agree with Morden, this matter would open up an entire new front of the diplomacy issue.

Brad is right. In my large galaxy, all but 8 sectors are blue. The good Alterans are in 1 cornor and they are fighting the evil Yor, in the opposite cornor (its true). Since I control the rest of the galaxy, there would be no way their ships could battle without crossing my territory. For the past few hours, I've been watching them fight each other in my sectors. Neither AI has been able to attack the other planets as their ships are being destroyed in blue galaxy center. Under the sector ownership idea, each ship would need my permission to cross the galaxy! Think of the time wasted giving permission to scores of AI ships to cross each of my sectors. I'm very happy to be left alone to build my Overlords and max my Starbases, preparing to attack them both. (I'm not sure an 300HP Overlord can successfully attack a lvl 28 Yor Starbase or lvl 20 Dreadnought, but will find out).

Nidaros, would you even care if a friendly warship passed withing 100 lightyears of your planet or starbase? Would an enemy warship even care about sector ownership?

Think about this: in a gigantic galaxy, you end up in the center. In the 4 cornors are the AI and they are waging war with each other. You are netural. Is it going to be fun escorting 100s of warships each turn as they battle each other?

Borders make sense in a relatively small 3-dimensional space (like Earth's biosphere), but I don't think they're worth trying to implement in a space game.

Keep in mind that the galactic map is limited by the choice of display. We're looking at a 2D representation of a 3D galaxy. What might appear as fleets of starships passing through your territory is more likely to be fleets of starships passing through unoccupied, and hopefully unmonitored, space. Sensors should tell you that this bit of normally empty space has suddenly sprouted battleships.

A 3D star map might be a cool addition to v3.x, but if it happens, you might also want to include a supply of ibuprofen for anybody trying to make sense of a 3D map of a gigantic galaxy. (At least for us elderly types.)

End transmission.

I've never seen a 3D tactical map that I found enjoyable (Homeworld included). Too much time is spent messing around with the UI and not enough on tactics.

I used to be an advocate of the "space borders" idea... but now not so much. If you see a bunch of ships heading for your space, it should be your responsibility to do something about it... maybe a diplomatic option to tell the AI to remove any ships within a certain distance from your systems? Of course, if they're building up a fleet, they're probably going to attack you no matter what you say to them...

I agree with Wyrenn - a diplomatic option to say, "Get your ships out of my sectors" would be valuable. Especially if you need a casus belli.

Well, borders may be to hard for the AI to deal with, how about some sort of buffert arround your solarsystems, perhaps 2-3 squares.

Borders of any size seems to be to be a bit rediculous. Why would you want to restrain the travel of friends through space near your systems? If an enemy is coming near your system will the enemy respect your boundaries? I think the answer to both is "no". Denying a friend passage through space near your systems HAS to degrade your relations. If the relations are already degrading then this could be the last straw, throwing friends into war with each other. Asking an enemy to remove their ships would result in only one of a few responses - 1). "We will go where we wish. If you try to stop us we will crush you.". 2). "Will you accept peace for removing our ships?". 3). "We will remove our ships, this time. Don't make the mistake of such a demand again.", and perhaps a couple of other replies, none of which will further better relations. Asking an enemy to make peace before you allow them to approach within range of your ships would HAVE to have the same responses plus a few that could result in some form of a negotiated peace. Since there are other ways in the game already to negotiate peace, why compond it with borders? If an enemy is moving into position to attack you, either try to negotiate peace or try to repell their ships. I really don't think anything more is needed in the game.

thats the whole idea lucky jack.

it gives more political diversity, it'll create border wars.

it could perhaps have some good things in the UP such as settling disputes over who should control x,y territory

Jack is right! no borders! start a new tread.

I agree with Morden.
And Ted, this is a Forum, a place of discussion, not a place to give orders.

sorry, wasnt giving orders. just strongly disagree with the border idea.

Ah, I see!
Your post just seemed.. ordering
Well, misstakes happen...
I still like borders though LOL

I've been playing Civ since ver 1.0 for os/2. Best game on the market. Just afraid borders will ruin it. Perhaps a game option, borders on/off.

After all, Brad said it could be minutes between turns with borders on, and I have no idead how long each turn could be.

Well, I think that borders would add to the game experience, but perhaps not in the realease edition. It will take quite a lot more discussions on how this can be implemented into the game sucessfully.

One game which did use borders was Birth of The Federation. It worked fairly well but each sector was only 1 single square with (at max) one star. Galciv with decent sized sectors containing multiple stars possibly owned by different civilisations would be much harder to add borders to.

I think the important question as Jack mentioned is WHY do you want borders. I would like to

- control access to space in my areas
- add new political dimensions.

Controlling access of vessels near your home is a well understood and implemented concept. It can vary from naval exclusions zones, to fishing rights, to oil exploration rights, to rights of passage, and air corridors. I view space between my planets as MINE. Obviously others don't. Possible implementations would include
+ Adding borders (complexity to the game and AI?)
+ reducing range in unowned sectors (AI handling?)
+ blocking moving between enemy sectors (easy?)
any of these would give the same effect and allow a number of new political options (possibly affecting relations and moral).

Paul.