Just for the record, I happen to like borders. A lot.

But I do not see any implementation of borders that adds a net "fun" to the game versus the negatives involved (weaker AI, longer turns, pathfinding pain, etc.).

What I would like to see us do in the post 1.x series is have sector control have a vague sense of ownership. Where you and AI players would informally acknowledge the strategic interests of the sector owner.

Or more to the point, rather than look at them as hard coded borders, look at them as literally spheres of influence.

Speaking of "spheres of influence", we already have defections of systems, what about defections of ships?

Well, defection of ships seems reasonable, but im not sure how likely it is for a ship full of say Alterians, to suddenly decide, Hey! Those humans arent to bad, I think I like them better then our own people.. but if planets full of aliens can defect, why not ships? I think it sounds like a reasonably good idea to let ships defect.

On account of borders.
Well, the reason for me to have borders in a game is not merely for the "fun" of it.
And instead of preventing a ship from travelling through your space, as it would with hard coded borders, you could just limit the number of things the other race can do in your sphere of influence.

For example:
You can go through my space, but you cannot remain in the same place for more than, say, 5 turns, and you have to be leave before: Number of Hexes (that my sphere of influence stretches from one edge to another) divided by 2, turns.

Nr of Hexes / 2 = Amount of turns he can remain in my space.

Im not sure it is called "hexes" in GalCiv, but that was the best word I could come up with
This is just an idea I have, not a "UGHH! must be in NOW" LOL

How about;
All trade routes passing through my sphere of influence must pay a certain percent of toll (Is it called "toll"? Im not sure, anyway, I mean the thing you pay when for example crossing the border between two contries), the value of the toll can be negotiated in the diplomacy screen.
To avoid toll, the race handling the trade route can decide if it supposed to be an "open" or a "smuggling" trade route. Then the UP can decide to vote on punishment of those having smuggling routes that are discovered.

The thing to remember is that all that would do is solidify the lead whoever is winning has.

Im not quite sure I understand what you mean..

He means, if the Drengin get huge off the bat, it would be a lot harder to knock them back down to a reasonable size...

huge off the bat? sorry, english is not my first language, maybe you could explain in plain english

A compromise that may work is the old principle of Coaching Inns (UK) or Pony Express (US) used for transport/trading through enemy territory.

Specifically, instead of meaning that the leading empire (in terms of space ownership) has guaranteed extra income thus compounding their success without a possible response, allow a response by opposing players by placing space stations in enemy owned sectors as 'way stations'. Therefore sectors, (perhaps with station range upgrades – upgrade one-plus one; upgrade two-plus two sectors all directions), provides movement-free of toll zones (and/or other benefit factors?).

This will mean that stations can be used for other purposes than they are now, and if this could be implemented for the AI as well would create 'corridors’ through which commerce etc, would run and trade centres thrive - almost like the Spice Trail in the middle ages.


s

Great idea!

Steeveo, I am confused. Are you saying if I build a space station in the same sector as a Dregen star system, the sector color will stay red but I get free trade? What happens if the Dregens and Yor builds huge stations next to Earth, will my sector turn color and I lose income?

What if there are 5 stations in deep space and no one race has over 50% influence in that sector, who owns it or will it stay netural?
Is it possible to have an influence indicator on the sector map, showing each civ influence on that sector? This will help with station construction.

Ted,

I am not talking about trade - just the concept being discussed about tolls for movement through enemy held sectors - is that clear?

sure Steevo, tolls. Have no complaints about making extra gold for passing ships.

One of the reasons I suggested mine fields was to establish borders on the basis of where you put your fields and various defenses.....i.e. warp inderdictor mines/explosive mines.........

But, now that I think about the pathfinding issues, that creates some radical computation problems. Therefore.......

How about securing sectors one at a time through the use of constructors/military improvements? That might solve the computational issues because it would be decided on a sector by sector basis. Plus, you could add some pretty wicked rules for how it is decided who owns the sector.

To answer Nidaro's question--Brad is saying that the player who is already ahead and has lots of sectors benefits more from their larger "territory" than the player who is still behind and only has a few sectors to tax or restrict.

Not only that, but the player who only has a few sectors is also penalized more because their ships have to pass through more alien territory and the player who has a lot of sectors is penalized less because their ships generally mostly pass through their own territory.

So basically "borders" make the strong stronger and the weak weaker, the end result being that the game is more unbalanced.

When you are a smaller civ coming up from behind, you are going to hate borders because they will make it pretty much impossible to catch up. If you are just skipping those games where you can't immediately dominate then you're not really playing the game in my opinion.

-Robert

I don't see entire borders being enforced as a realistic concept. But what I do see is specific sectors being enforced, but that would cost you. It would be very expensive to control a sector, simply trying to control who goes through....so you could create a policy of control on a sector basis, but it would have a impact on your treasury in order to enforce it.

No civ could realistically enforce a large border without spending alot of money to put troops on those borders to enforce it. Bigger civs would have more of a hit because they have more smugglers/pirates/etc. targeting their trade.

The idea is that you have to have several things to control the sector: dominating influence, the proper military/social improvements, and a switch or slider to turn it on or off. But you could only do this to perhaps 6-12 sectors in any given game.

The issue here is not stopping them, but delaying them 5-20 turns for each ship. That usually makes the difference in most games.

I think sector borders are ok if

-you have 2 kinds of sectors. First are YOUR home sectors. These are sectors which have only your planets in it. Secondly you have "contested" sectors. In these sectors another race have at least one planet too.

The diplomacy screen of the other race you have peace with could have several border option boxes for the 2 kind of sectors. Just activate them or not if you contact the race.

The boxes could be:
- military ships entering allowed, y/n
- civilian ships entering allowed, y/n (trade inclusive)

Advanced options could be (not necessary)
- military ships entering allowed, but pay x credits per ships and per square entered
- civilian ships entering allowed, but pay x credits per ships and per square entered
- military ships entering allowed, but only if I can enter also this race sector with my ships y/n
- civilian ships entering allowed, but only if I can enter also this race sector with my ships y/n

Of course if you dont allow another race to enter your sectors with any ships for a longer time or crossing enemy borders, they will get more angry about you. This should depend on race. Maybe there are liberal races which think "space is free for everybody" and some protectionist races which think "these guys are right, but I am also not allowing any crossing of my sectors" But this is up to the designer.

I think this should be simple and offer enough variant.

KlausD

How about a SpaceStation upgrade that allows the station to collect fees from every ship that passes thru its sector (assuming the station controls the sector)? This could be the 4th economic upgrade for a station: 1g /ship/turn in its sector. The starbase menu could have Klaus's advanced options.

There are 2 more types of sectors:
3) just a starbase, no planets
4) no planets or bases, just influence.