ship combat 2 (Brad pls. some answers needed)

from Stardock Forums
I've start another topic because I have found possible solution for ship combat (for those who dont know read pls. thread named ship combat - one think i really hate:( and following discussion. Briefly I have problems (and some people too) that ship combat is only 1 vs 1 and first ships goes to inevitable death if opposing ship is technologicaly advanced (100 weaker drednaught vs 1 stronger, you always lost your first attacking dreadnoughts - QUANTITY DOESNT MATTER IN SHIP COMBAT ONLY QUALITY).

OK, here is the possible solution. We discussed fleets but there were counter-arguments that AI will not be able to hadle them. So I thought about it and find following (I dont want this solution to be implemented into game rather I want try to create optional mod or workaround):

In current ship combat one of the fighting ships is destryed in the end. Untill now I havent seen both ships survivd combat (even if they were same type). It could be solved by lowering attack/defense or multiply basic HP. Second solution (HP) looks like be better. After applying this there will be probably chance that both ships survive combat and player (AI) will be able to take advantage of other ships and attack with the second one, third etc.

What I need to know (Brad or someone else with this knowledge please help me with this):

1. Exact algorithms how combat is resolved (ie. how both attack and defense values are used and how the damage is caluculated).

2. Will this affect AI? I think that it wont (because this change nothing in the current mechanism) but i am not GalCiv developer of course:).

What we will get from this mod? I hope we get little bit tactical turn-based combat and workaround for this "quantity doesnt matter" problem.

If someone wants to help me with this and testing I will appreciate your help.
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
""2. Will this affect AI? I think that it wont (because this change nothing in the current mechanism) but i am not GalCiv developer of course:).""

It will. The AI don't make pile of 10 Corvettes when attacking. It sends them all.

This implement of yours is pretty hard to make.. It would change the AI, the ways battle resolves, and the way to make reliable statistics about one's empire...


Good idea, but brad would have to get back to a DAMN LOT of coding.
:notsure:
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
There is no need for ships to be in pile (this is opposite against the fleet option discussed earlier). Ships just need to target same thing and I think it will work. I saw many times AI attacking Sharks or my dreadnoughts with more than one ship in one turn.

It depend how AI calcualtes targets for its ship. Sadly we dont posses this knowledge.
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
AFAIK combat algorithm is thoroughly documented in the manual as it dreadfully simple LOL !
Look at the Library, I've made some Excel stat sheets of probable damage done by ships in 1 round ;)
And you also have the "Combat simulator" in the Metaverse menu ...

Targert priority ? Well, Brad did state that the "biggest" ship always was the target of all attacks - I think it is the COMBAT ship with most HP that is the target, non-cmabat ships are attacked only when no combat ships are (anymore) present.

I don't think that a complicated method is warranted for such a small problem as losing 1 or 2 Dreads out of 100, or even 20, when attacking a single or couple enemy ships.
It can even be rationalized as being the superior enemy ship having longer range/precision and so getting first kill (think of a Panther vs a company of Shermans or T-34s, or a M1 Abrams vs 12 T-80s if you're a modern type ;p )...
However I'd strongly support inclusion of task force/fleet stack combat, with combined arms bonuses, a couple "ranks " of ships, related "command" techs, ie stg giving more depth to combat without breaking the system (no "tactical" combat à la MOO2).
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
thanks for help, I am goint to check this in Library...
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
hmm... I look at the manual and what i have described above will not work :(

because:
"This is repeated until one of the two ships has 0 hit points and this ship is destryoed."

So there is no chance that both ships survive combat.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Eeek... I didn't know that was your underlying point, to have ship survivors. In this case, no, no, and thank you, no sir, I'll have none of that. I've got enough hundreds of ships flying around to not want combat to become undecisive.

I really like the sort of quantumization of ship improvements as you go through tech tree, it helps balance tech vs. sheer economy.

~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
(sarcasm mode on)

Brad, can we have fleet combat?

Absolutely not.

Okay, can have fleet combat then?

No, absolutely, unequivocally not, no way.

Okay, but can we have fleet combat...

:D :D :D :D

(sarcasm mode off)

~SDC~
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
>>(100 weaker drednaught vs 1 stronger, you always lost your first attacking dreadnoughts - QUANTITY DOESNT MATTER IN SHIP COMBAT ONLY QUALITY).<<

I'm sort of missing what the problem is here. Are you stating that 100 weaker dreadnaughts should be able to attack a stronger dreadnaught without losing *any* ships?

Unless they're outclassed several times over, those dreadnaughts will wear the stronger one down pretty quickly, suffering a number of losses along the way. That's how it *should* be, honestly.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
I second FFAristocrat. The current system might not be perfect, but I like the balance between tech and numbers. I think Brad has done a very good job of balancing essential features against non-essential features, to keep the focus on overall strategy rather than tiny details. It's great to have a game like this that has me still clicking through turns quickly even in the late stages of a huge galaxy game.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
Brad made it pretty clear I thought, that he wanted to avoid the mega-fleet problem, where one huge fleet was mopping up everything. I had the same problem in the HOMM games. One huge stack does the work, the rest are simply decoys or slowdown troops.

It may not be the most realistic way to do it, but I try to look at it like a game of chess or a board game. The positioning of the pieces is more important than the strength of the piece. In the game, strategically placing your best 'pieces' will yield the best results. I'm ok without fleets, it is just a different way to play the game. Makes you think more, IMO.

fleabitfox
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Fleet combat would require a huge change in AI. Fleets are put in only to help with the micromanaging. Right now the AI essentially doesn't even recognize that fleet combat exists. so...
1. AI must recognize fleets.
2. AI must learn to use transports, constructors, combat ships into effective fleets.
3. Need to figure out someway not to end up with mega fleets.
4. Program Fleet strategy.
5. debug.

ugh. That is just the start. It is a huge undertaking, not something that I would want to do for a small increase in tactical game play
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
Combat is discussed pretty explicitly in the user manual.

While there have been some interesting ideas given, it's not going to change in 1.x. It would be too much of a change and require a massive amount of AI work.

BTW, AI already escorts transports, but it's at higher levels.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
BTW, there really are no "fleets" in GalCIv. A "fleet" is really just the equivalent of grouping a bunch of ships together and moving them. There is no bonus involved with them. They are just a convenience.
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
It's a handy convenience, I just have to remember to disband just near whatever I'm attacking and move them individually. It'd be nice if a move action that results in an attack would auto-disband the fleet (as opposed to disbanding the ships, which would just be silly).

~SDC~