Actually, it would be great if the parents of the children would draw the line.  If we as a society can promote free thinking, decision making...you know, common sense and stuff.  The perhaps more people would grasp the idea and run with it.  The greatest thing to ever teach a child is how to think and reason.

That's why I have a huge problem with schools today and those damned standardized tests.  That promotes memorization and nonthought.  There is no integration of material and expanded thinking.  It's "learn this and memorize it for a multiple choice test, and one essay about some stupid topic."  That sucks.  It really, really sucks.  Luckily I got out before that whole system started to corrode the institution.  I mean, we actually had discussions in class...there was lecture and question and answer.  "What do you think?" "What does this mean?"  "Could you explain your answer?"  You see, that's the kind of stuff we need more off.  Not, "What is this? Correct.  Now tell me this? Incorrect.  Study harder."  What the hell is that?  Just yes or no, abcd or e answers...it ain't right I tell ya.

~Zoo

Zoo:

We, as parents do draw the line.  I would fight anyone who tried to stop me from raising my kids with my standards, religious and political beliefs.  I mean, when my kids were younger, we didn't yell, "last one in the car's a rotten egg", we yelled "last one in the car's a Democrat!".  I don't see a problem with that.:~D

My kids are now at the age where they are going to have their own opinions no matter what we taught them.  None of them are democrats so far, but I can tell you, we have some pretty fun discussions at times... and no, not because we see eye to eye on everything.

I agree with you here.  Schools don't even consider it their job to teach kids how to think anymore...  But they are sure ready and willing to teach them What to think.

You'd be surprised at what years of brainwashing can do to a person.

However, I doubt you went as far as lecturing them every day on what you wanted them to be...aside from a respectable person.

I do admit it gets a little fuzzy in this discussion. What is teaching and what is forcing beliefs?

There's a limit in there somewhere. One just hopes to raise a decent child, but hopefully they don't load them up on crazy ideas...at least without due reason. If I ask a child to explain to me why he or she believes something and can't provide an explanation other than "Well Daddy says" or "Mommy says" then something might be wrong.

I mean feeling some way about something and not knowing why indicates a mental disorder...does it not?



Yeah, I'm starting to see that too...reasoning is thrown by the wayside, I'm not too down with all that. If you think a certain way, at least back it up with some sort of evidence, experience, or something...parroting crap back hardly shows a real thinking individual. I could have the same conversation with someone's taperecorder.

~Zoo

I think, in matters of faith, if what you are hoping for is sincere belief on the part of your child, it is best to give them room to test, study, and grow without too much pressure.

You can grow a life-long "Christian" by having them in the church every time the doors are open and constantly going on and on about YOUR beliefs, but in my experience and observation, it tends to grow a rather shallow, crumbly type of Christian.

I have an acquaintance who fiercely defends her faith and speaks out against things like homosexuality. She has 3 kids by three different fathers, and is currently unemployed because she slept with her boss. When she got in an argument with her neighbor recently she , in front of her children, loudly screeched and called her neighbor a "Mexican CUNT!!".

She is all about Christianity and always on guard against those sinful and wrong atheists.

That is the type of religion that comes from indoctrination. It's not sincere. It's very rigid but at the same time, very shallow and crumbly.

Truly a hero in her faith.

~Zoo

Her sins are just farther out in the open than some. Everybody's got them.

Most people know how not to be an asshole when they have their own skeletons in their closet.

Oh wait, no they don't...but you'd think if the skeletons were dangling on the porch you wouldn't be such a bitch.

~Zoo

Jythier, you are right, we all have faults. Some are very public and others can be well hidden.

The point is, she is an UN-ambassador of her faith. It is clear from her actions and words that her faith does not permeate her. It's a tool for determining the correctness or incorrectness of the behaviors of others, but is not turned inward.

That is the type of Christianity that often comes from indoctrination.

If we really believed in God would we do a lot of the things we do? I think indoctrinated people get wind of what's going on and are really just sorta 'playing church' or whatever they were indoctrinated in. They know the rituals, but not the reasons. And when they're all alone, does it really matter what they show on the outside? No.

That's one of the problems with 'indoctrinating' kids into Christianity. If you haven't taught them why, you haven't taught them anything.

Always teach why...always, always, always. That "Why?" question kids ask, while it can be annoying, is the best question they can ever ask. (Unless they're in a situation where orders need to be given, then it's act first-ask later)

If you don't know the why and you believe in something vehemently then you're probably mentally ill.

~Zoo

Or calling people the 'c' word and then railing against sinful atheists.

I don't even use the 'c' word, and I swear like a sailor sometimes.

~Zoo

I'm not sure my point is clear to everyone here, yet.

I remember in middle school, whenever election year rolled around, it was like having the superbowl roll around - with an exception.  Kids had no problem whatsoever with pulling against their father's favorite football team.  But you could clearly tell the politics of the parents by the outspoken opinions of the children.  I include myself in this, but I was not alone.  Not by a long shot.  I'm talking 6th grade here.  Not High School after we'd had some government classes and whatnot.  Maybe some economics...maybe SOMETHING besides Mom and Dad ranting and raving over the "other party" at dinner or in front of the news every night.

I don't know if things are still like this.  I'll ask my son what his opinion is and get back to you all with what he says.

As far as religion goes, to the indoctrinators, there's a lot more at stake than tax cuts, and so the indoctrination is more thorough.  And again, we could discuss what 16 year olds are taught, but by that time, the indoctrination in religion is done.  I'm talking about children that are far too young to reason out matters of cosmology even if you encouraged them to try.

An example is the story of Edgardo Mortara.  Heard of him?  In 1858, Anna Morisi, an illiterate Catholic 14 year old girl was looking after a baby - Edgardo Mortara, the son of jewish parents.  Edgardo fell ill, and because Anna had learned that unbaptized children go to hell, she, in a panic, asked advice of a Catholic neighbor who told her how to baptize the baby - which she did.  When the Inquisition learned of this years later, they took the child from his parents because at the point he was baptized, he became legally Christian, and so the Inquisition's duty was clear.

Now just so you don't think I'm bashing one religion, check out the other side of the coin.  Why did jewish people have a catholic servant?  Apparently lots of them did back then.  You know why?  Because jewish servants wouldn't have been able to cook, clean house, or so much as light a fire on a Saturday.

Could the parents have gotten the child back?  Sure.  All they had to do was let the Catholic priests splash a little water on their heads and throw a few Dominis around and game over.  Now they're all Christian...here's your kid.  (Which is ridiculous in itself, but that's another thread) They could have kept on believing whatever they wished in private, but they didn't?.  Didn't?  I say they COULDN'T.  Literally COULDN'T.  Such is the strength of the indoctrination of a fundamentalist mindset.  It becomes impossible for many to break out of the brainwash.  The parents were indoctrinated.  The 14 year old girl was indoctrinated.  The preists and Inquisition people were indoctrinated.  And that's all well and good except who paid the price here?  Who was the unwitting participant in all of that?

Ok, so these are more enlightened times.  A baptized baby of jewish parents won't be ripped from his parents.  But where do we get off baptizing babies in the first place?  Why not let them grow up and decide for themselves?  Same with circumcision.

In some cultures, mainly African but not limited to, FEMALE circumcision is practiced.  Well, people can believe what they want, but how many women do you know choosing to get female circumcisions once they become adults?

 

Ha, I recognize that story from The God Delusion!

But Ock...sacrificing our children in order to remain faithful is a virtue right?  God is the first and foremost love in our life.  Our spouses, parents, and our children are secondary.  We can't even bother to lie about being another faith to save ourselves and our children that trauma.

I mean come on Ock, it's just our children...who are they compared to God?  *psh*

~Zoo

 

(That was more sarcasm than normal... )

Bingo! Oh wait, you were sarcastic.