if the giant godsent scorpion locusts suck all rationality outta peoples' brains, it would appear they're already hard at work.

when god employs instruments of mass destruction with the intention of scaring humans so badly they agree to his terms, isn't it then accurate to pronounce him a terrorist?

God needs no Temple, House or Church, but we must have places that we can worship Him in common and praise Him and ask for blessings, so that it is on our account that God requires places of worship. For this cause, He Himself designed the Tabernacle and later on the Temple where He was present in an especial manner and they were commanded to visit the Temple. Same with the Catholic Chruch...Christ is present in an especial way and going to Mass is imposed on us as a duty.

God was present to the Isrealites in a visible cloud in the Temple and therefore the Temple was indeed the dwelling place of God amongst men. Now, after God had become Man, woould He have removed Himself further from us than He was from the Isrealites? Are we to have no dwelling place of God in our midst? Is nothing to be left to us but the bare memory of God made man? NO! It would be inconceivable that God, after His Incarnation, should be less approachable than He was before it!! Jesus Christ would not leave us orphans...He has remained with us being present on our altars under the visible appearance of bread and wine in the Blessed Sacrament. There He is in the Tabernacle, His eyes and His heart beholding those who come to adore Him. He gave Himself to us as the Food for our souls.

The Isrealites had only one Temple which I'm told was exceptionally beautiful. Catholics have many churches far holier becasue they are where the holy Sacraments are dispensed by her priests and where our Lord Jesus Christ with His Divinity and Humanity is there present and in the Mass offers Himself for us to His Heavenly Father. I tell you there is nothing on earth as close to Heaven as the Holy Mass is at the time of consecration of the bread and wine.

Every one of the Catholic chruches are solemnly consecrated sanctified to be the property and dwelling place of God and the abode of grace.    

 Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

God was present in the Tabernacle of the Old Covenant Temple and He is present in the Tabernacle of Christ's New Covenant Church and will be until the end of the world as He promised. The tearing of the Temple veil at the time of Christ's Death on the Cross signified the end of the Mosaic Covenant ceremonies and rites and the beginning of the New and Eternal Covenant.    It is providential as the New Covenant predicted by Jeremias came into being in the first century which the Messias instituted Catholic Church evidences. Jer. 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:1-10.

Well, in Scripture, there are several different uses of the term "temple" and in this case, you and I are in agreement. The "temple" applies to the individual. 1Cor.6:19-20  is similiar...."Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God with your body."  

Hey, Leauki, see the Blessed Trinity there!  

Can you give me three examples of sentences that DON'T mention the "Blessed Trinity" from the Bible or any writing (including comic books) you have ever read?

I don't know....I mean if you created something yourself, whether it be baking a cake, making a lego city or building a house and then you decided to destroy it because it wasn't up to your standards does that make you a terrorist? 

We must have places?  Does it have to be a building?  Let me answer that for you.  NO.  Jesus met with the people in fields, on mountains and in homes.  The early church did the same.  The only requirement is that we corporately worship together.  There's no where in the NT where we are ordered, or it's our duty to build big fancy expensive buildings to worship.  Puh-leeese! 

Yes, God was present and met with them personally.  How cool is that?  Did I say that God removed himself further by stating he indwells each believer now?  Does that question even make sense Lula.  Are you listening?  I told you he indwells each believer with his Holy Spirit.  How can that be further away? 

far Holier than God's Temple?  Are you listening Leauki?  I'm not even going to touch this one Lula.  Let's just say this is a ridiculous statement.  Ok?  You may want to do your HW on Solomon's Temple. 

Ya, I know all about that.  The funny thing is they think they are moving God in and out of buildings when they do this. 

Now this I agree with but only because the Church is God's people.  So let's rephrase that.......God is present in the Temple of Christ's New Coveanant Church, each believer, and will be until he returns for them as he promised.  That's the seal which is the same way as saying it's a done deal.  Sign, sealed and delivered, we're his. 

You're forgetting something.  Malachai ONLY wrote to the Jews as did all the OT Prophets.  Not one wrote to or about the church age.  They never saw it.  That's why Paul wrote about this as being one of the mysteries of the OT..... of Jews and Gentiles together.  That's why Peter and the rest had such a hard time accepting Gentiles coming into the faith.  What Gentiles?  God what are you saying to us?  That's what the big discussion was about at the first Jerusalem Council. That's what Peter's dream about eating all sorts of once prohibited foods was all about.   

Yes in fact it's all thru the OT up until the destruction of Solomon's Temple and before the Babylonian captivity.  That's how God met with the Israelites.  That's the Old Covenant.  The New Covenant was the indwelling of each believer individually......not buildings, Catholic or otherwise. 

Malachi is a mini summary of the entire OT.  There are five truths taught in Malachi. 

1.  Selection of Israel

2.  Transgression of Israel

3.  Manifestation of the Messiah

4.  Tribulation upon nations

5.  Purification of Israel.

Here Malachi rebuked the people for their neglect of the true worship of the Lord and was calling them to repent. 

I know what you're looking at but it's not what you're thinking.  God says there is a day coming when his name will be great among the Gentiles and the nations but that is not today.  He's speaking of the future Millennium when all peoples, names and tribes will rejoice in God.  God's name is not great among the nations today.  Incense speaks of prayer and is used alot in the scriptures to denote prayer.  That "pure offering" is Christ.  There is nothing else so pure. 

God purpose in choosing Israel was they might witness to the world of Him and they were not doing that so Malachi was rebuking them for bringing God's name into disrepute. 

We know, that because of the sins of Israel that God turned to the Gentiles.  At one point we read that Christ, after weeping over Jerusalem, walked out of the temple and it's as if to say...."the glory of the Lord (Icabod) has departed."  It's now the time of the Gentiles.  He will once again turn back to his elected Israel after this time is complete which I believe is coming to an end. 

What is this?  This is not a bible book. 

I stand corrected on the ark and the glory departing.  I was right on the glory of the Lord departing there in Samuel but yes, I meant to say (and have said elsewhere) that after Solomon's Temple there was no more indwelling of Temples.  To this day no one knows where that Ark went.  That was the dwelling place of the Lord. The Mercy Seat.  Some say it was hidden by the High Priest just before Solomon's Temple was destroyed.  It was never recovered after the return from exile 70 years later.  That's what the whole Raider of the Lost Ark was about.  It still lost. 

I was trying to remember if there's any talk of God indwelling that last Temple.  This would be the temple of Ezra and Nehemiah after coming out of captivity.  The Ark was gone so I'm thinking (would have to look) although they kept the feasts and sacrifices, the indwelling of God wasn't there as before. 

Yes, I am listening.

I don't think Lula understand what the Temple was/is about.

And while churches (and synagogues) are new meeting places, they serve only that purpose (of a meeting place) and are certainly not "holier" than the Temple.

G-d doesn't need us to build specific buildings to worship Him.

Neither Jesus nor rabbinic Judaism teach that buildings are needed.

Terror? Oh you mean that figment of George Bush's imagination that he used to distract us from electing clueless liberals. There isn't really any terra, and that hole in Manhattan? Just an illusion engineered by neocon sorcerers.

hahahaha  good one Anthony.  I forgot that's an obsolete six letter word now the liberals have taken over. 

My bad. 

well, yeah.  iraq = terror was used to distract us from afghanistan.  just ask general petraeus.

I don't think so either because she's looking at all this thru Catholic rose colored glasses.  I want her to put down those glasses and look, really take a good hard look with her own eyes.  Only then will she be able to see.  This is not about the CC and the replacing of the Jews.  Nowhere in the NT (especially in Acts) is there even a hint that we are to rebuild the temple.

I just finished reading the book of Exodus and God was very clear and precise about the building of the Tabernacle that was a tent in the wilderness.  He dotted every i and crossed every t to what he wished for this to be.  The reason, I believe is because the pattern for this Tabernacle has been in heaven the whole time.  That's the original and we will see it in the future.

I think they are not telling us the real reason for  the whole Iraq deal.  The opportunity was seen and seized. 

The primary reason we are over there right now is to  have a strategic presence in the middle of the Arab world.  Iraq is there right in the middle of things.  This is not being publicized but there are reasons why we're over there and has much more than the reasons given.  The U.S being there is critical. 

Has anyone not noticed that we are building the largest U.S. Embassy ever over there?  Why is that? 

The UN is starting the wheels turning into the rebuilding of Babylon which will be central to Islam.  This money is being spent for a reason.  We need to be over there to keep a watchful eye on things so thinks the government. 

Did you hear that in Germany many Catholics have left the CC in the last few weeks, ever since the Pope re-admitted a Holocaust-denier into the church?

No I didn't. 

 But I do believe there is a deep seeded hatred still today between these two groups.  Now, I don't believe ALL Catholics are like this individually but I do believe it's an attitude that has deeper spiritual implications.  I know they've try to undo some past mistakes by admitting them and coming out with the olive branch. ......but it's still there under all the layers and will rear it's ugly head once again.  In Venezuela right now the Jews are very fearful as anti-Semitism is making itself known there.  The Jews are on guard.   

Do you know that is a RCC country? 

I'm afraid you might be right, at least when talking about the so-called "traditionalists" in the CC. They are frightening people.

I heard about that.

I.e a Catholic country? Yes, I knew that.

lula posts:

By Christ's New Covenant Church, I mean "the Church" as prophecied in the OT and "the Church" that Christ founded and established. "The Church" is a visible society of the validly baptized faithful, united together in one organic body by the profession of the same Christian faith, by the participation of the same Sacrifice and the same 7 Sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him. "The Church" is comprised of the faithful united under the Pope who is the Vicar of Christ, Who Himself remains the Cornerstone.  Psalm 86:5;117:22, Eph. 4:15 DR version.

During the very time "the Church's" bishops were committing to paper the writing which we call the NT, as confirmed by that handy history of the apostolic age, the New Testament itself, "the Church" was a functioning organism. Survivng documents of historians and the Church Fathers testify to "the one Church" with one set of unchanging doctrines, identical to those which have continued to our time in the Catholic Church despite the fact that the truth is constantly under attack, even as it is on this thread.   

KFC POSTS: #81

And in your resphrase, we see the truth of Christ's doctrine of the Church as a visible society is rejected; your rejoinder being the Protestant error which redefines "the Church" as each believer.  According to your belief no one could tell who belonged to the true Chruch and who did not. Scripture clearly shows that Christ established a visible CHurch, not churches and appointed visible Apostles. "The Church" was to be and is a visible, authoritative, priestly society, of which Christ promised to remain until the end of the world. And those belonged to the Chruch who accepted the teachings of the Apostles and preserved in the discipline imposed upon them. In Acts 20:28, we read St.Paul discourse to the clergy to the Church at Ephesus, "Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost has placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood."

If "the Church" is an invisible quality confined to, as you say, each believer, then no human being could say where the true Chruch is to be found, and no one could hear her voice or obey its precepts. But our Lord established a visible Chruch and He compared it to a city set upon a hill which cannot be hid. One and only one of the visible and organized Chruches in the world is His and the Catholic Chruch alone can show the characteristics which He declared should be those of His one true Church.

KFC, how could bishops rule the Church if the Church is an invisible quality confined to each believer?   Your definition of the Church doesn't make sense in this context or in any of the Biblical passages in which we find the word "church" of which there are many.

"The Church", the one founded by Our Lord: "In the last days, the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow into it." Is. 2:2. Of this Church, the Church of all nations, Christ said, "YOu are the light of the world, A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid." What cannot be hid, can be seen. St.Paul asks, "What have I to do to judge them that are without! Do not you judge them that are within? For them that are without, God will judge."

It's not true that God is ever present in the soul of each believer.

Almighty God and sin are incompatible....God does not abide where there is grevious sin and so if a believer's soul is in the state of unrepentant mortal sin, the Holy Spirit is not with him.

 Saint Paul taught that "The wages of sin is death."

Agree...the "clean oblation" is Christ.

Malachais 1:11  "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts."

KFC POSTS:

Again, Malachais' prophecy foretells that God will accept of the sacrifice that shall be offered in every place among the Gentiles. A "clean oblation" to Catholics is the precious Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass and that's why I said Christ abides 24/7 in fulfillment of Malachais' prophecy 1:11 until the end of the world.


This fulfillment was evidenced in the institution by Jesus of a more perfect Sacrifice; an "unbloody oblation", later called the Holy Mass, in place of the bloody Mosaic sacrifices, Mal. 1:11; St.Luke 22:19-20.

This sacrifice was to be offered on altars all over the world, "from the rising of the sun, unto the going down thereof", instead of a single altar in a central place, as called for in the Old Testament. Deut. 12, Esdras 7:17, Mal. 1:11.

Actually, I know what you're looking at but it's not what you're thinking! Your error lies in thinking that Malachais was speaking of one country and of one people and in forgetting he prophecied the end of the Jewish sacrifices which were offered in one place and instead would be offered all over the world from the rising of the sun until the going down.  And 2, Malachais' prophecy has already been fulfilled the moment the Gentiles accepted the Good News of Christ and were converted to the Church (baptized). From that time on, God's name was indeed great among the Gentiles. In Acts, we read how they met on Sunday and the "clean oblation" was offered to God by them comemmorating Our Lord's Body and Blood by the breaking of the Bread. And the 24/7 offering of the "clean oblation" continually goes on today, in every Catholic Mass all over the world.

It is today becasue Malachais' prophecy, the last of Isrea's divine prophecies, has already been fulfilled just like all the other OT prophecies....in Jesus Christ. Since he prophecied in the 5th century BC, he was speaking of a future millenium, and that millenium began when Christ was born and will go until the end of the world.

Agree. The time of the Gentiles is the Millennium, the Church age.  And yes, God's name as was preached and accepted by by the Gentiles has been preached and accepted by people of every nation all over the world...it will continue until the exact number has been reached only known by God, Our Father in Heaven.  So, God's name which is Jesus Christ is indeed great amongst those who believe, follow and love Him by keeping His commandments.   

who said anything about being invisible?  Have I said that?  Where?   Why do you keep insisting this? 

No.  I keep telling you the church is people not buildings, not popes, not creeds, not pillars, not denominations.  The church is ecclesia.....called out ones.  Am I invisible?  I'm a stone in the Lord's church.  My fellow Christian brothers and sisters help make up the building regardless of their affiliation on earth until God comes back to take us home. I think it was Peter who called us lively stones.   

The bible says it's the spirit that bears witness.  That means when I meet another Christian anywhere in the world, I'll know.  Since I've had experiences along this line, I know that what the bible says about this is true.  Remember Jesus said the wheat and tares are to grow together until the harvest.  The churches (denominations) are filled with tares.  When you're in God's word and you understand the way of the spirit it's not hard at all to spot these tares. 

This OT scripture HAS NOTHING to do with the RCC.  Isaiah the prophet was writing to the Jews and it was meant for the Jews.  Not the Catholics.  FOR CRYING OUT LOUD READ THE THING IN CONTEXT.  It says in v1....."this is what Isaiah saw concerning JUDAH and Jerusalem."  The whole context has to do with the House of Jacob.  The Gentiles WERE NEVER referred to like this.   The whole context is Jewish, not Gentile or Catholic.  This is nothing more than taking God's word and making it say what you want Lula because your loyalty is not to it but to the RCC. 

It's not truth.  It's a lie.  It's a lie under attack.  I keep showing you but you don't want to know because you are convinced that the RCC is the ONLY church and that's just not true.  You do not have ears to hear. 

Show me where the church was prophecied in the OT. 

this is Catholic speak, not biblical speak.  I already gave you scripture saying the contrary Lula.  God's spirit doesn't come and go out of a person.  He dwells with his own and never leaves nor forsakes them.....that's what Christ meant when he said after he left he would send the comfortor (Holy Spirit)  That's what Paul was speaking of when he said the Spirit indwells the believers and that we, now are the Temple of God. 

Really?  I've already shown you he does and I can show you lots more where that came from.    Can you give me scripture backing up what you just said?

no. 

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

I agree that we are required to corporately worship together...and so where should we do that if not in a Church building, KFC?

KFC POSTS:

What do you mean NO? Don't Protestants make their "born again" testimony public in Protestant buildings they call their church?

no kiddin????

using our military force to establish such a presence by means of preemptive attack violates the basic tenets of modern civilization and repudiates our claim to be the greatest nation on the planet. 

because we plan to keep exploiting iraq for a long time to come?

which branch of islam?

forgive me for presuming, but i get the very clear sense you're hinting rebuilding babylon is one more step in the inevitable race to the end of days.  

a much more obvious and rational reason seems to be escaping you: in the wake of massive aerial bombing and urban warfare, survivors have 2 options--rebuild or move.

lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

KFC and Leauki,

Since your working as a tag-team and both believe I don't understand how the Old Covenant Mosaic Temple, its priestly sacrifices, it's ceremonies and rites were used in the worship of Almighty God, would you enlighten me? 

My full statement is above...I used the word "holier than" and went on to explain my reasoning (of which I note neither one of you refuted). Do that and I'll defend how the Catholic Church, the 7 Sacraments and worship of God replaced them and are indeed more perfect and holier. 

Hint: St.Paul didn't warn for nothing that the rituals and laws of the Old Covenant being abolished, now count for nothing, confer no grace, and save no one and worse, they bring a curse upon those who obstinately cling to them. Saint Paul also declared that if justification came from the Old Law, "then Christ died in vain."

He said "the law brought nothing to perfection" knowing the holy religion of the New Covenant does. Salvation for all people is only through Jesus Christ.

The supercession of the Old COvenant and its rituals by the New Covenant is another of the Catholic dogmas present day Modernists are trying to "interpret" out of existence.

Lula posts:

Yes, you do keep saying the Church is people as well as the church is all believers. This conviction of yours is a Protestant construct which isn't true. No one can look at people and say this one is the church and this one isn't.

 The best we can say is the Church is made up of people.

Protestants see "the Church" as an invisible entity and that it refers collectively to all believers united by faith in Christ despite major variations in doctrine and denominational allegiance. While Catholics understand "the Chruch" simultaneously as a visible, historical entity and as believers united as the Mystical Body of Christ.  

Saint Paul called the Church a mystery. Jesus' founding of the Church was completed with the sending of the Holy SPirit, the actual birth took place on the First Pentecost Day in 33AD. Ever since then, the Church has shown itself to be a Divine-human reality, a combination of the Spirit working and the people striving in their human way, to cooperate with the gift of His presence and Christ's Gospel.  

The image of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ is found in St.Paul's writings to the Corinthians. He teaches that our communion with Christ comes from "the cup of blessing" which unites us in His Blood and from "the bread which we break" which unites us to His Body. Becasue the bread is one, all of us, though many, are one body. The Eucharistic Body of Christ, "the clean oblation", offered at every Mass, and the Church are, together, the Mystical Body of Christ.

Romans 12 and 1Cor. 12 StPaul emphasises the mutual dependence and concern we have as members of one another. In Ephesians and Colossians, the emphasis is on Christ as our Head. Through Christ, God is unfolding His plan, 'the mystery hidden for ages" to unite all things and to reconcile us to Himself. Bucasue this mystery is being unfolded in the Church, Ephesians calls the Chruch "the mystery of Christ."

Ephesians 4:5 speaks of the Chruch as the Mystical Body of Christ having one body, one Spirit, one faith, one baptism, etc. This is why there can be but one true Church of God at any one time. And this is why "the Church" can't be as you say... all believers and neither can it be hundreds of doctrinally conflicting churches as exist in the Protestant world which assumes God to be doctrinally and morally divided.