Frogboy please read this (it's a good thread)...

I had to write that after my recipe for frog legs

But it's true frogboy. Just keep in mind, those nitpickers and ubergamers are quite the minority. I'd say the general gamers out here are quite pleased.

Keep up the great work

Senator idleprocess
'Manifest Destiny'
The Mid-Western Confederation
http://idle.thehueys.com/midwest

~SDC~

I just wish all those that are complaining would realize the outstanding customer service we are recieving. This is unheard of in the software industry (Any other industry either).

Stardock has a great idea. they listen to what the gamers want and then implement it. Not rocket science but they are the only ones doing it.

I am now officially a Stardock "fanboy" and proud to be one. This is the very best game I've played in a long long time and I purchase an average of 4 games per month. Keep up the great work Frogboy!!!

~SDC~

Thanks guys.

BTW, some cool new metaverse features are going on-line probably this week..

1) You'll get a little icon by your name based on whether you generally play as GOOD or EVIL.

2) You'll be able to sort the scores by GOOD, NEUTRAL and EVIL leaders. That'll be fun.

I appreciate your post particularly because you hit the nail right on the head. Without context, any discussion is ultimately meanignless. Most turn based strategy games don't just have a few little things that are different between human and AI, they fundamentally play different games.

The AI in GalCiv places essentially the same game you are other than very well known exceptions. Anything beyond that would be considered a bug that should be treated as such as opposed to a "Gotcha! See, it's just like every other game! It cheats!"

Why is there this completely unfounded notion that to point out *bugs* means that we are not fans and supporters of Stardock, as well as 100% aware of what outstanding service this game has.

What I scratch my head at is the notion that if a company does base their success and customer loyalty on the notion of prolonged and continued support for their products that suddenly it's verboten to take part in that support process by finding, documenting, and pointing out genuine bugs in the system.

Somehow it's fine to fill webboard after webboard with game critiques and developer rants if they're not listening, but if they do everybody has to walk about with silk slippers and a gag in their mouths unless they want to gush praise? I don't get that attitude at all.

Have you looked at the list of bugs / new features that have been fixed/added in GalCiv since release?

Somehow, amazingly, all those bugs got fixed, some serious, some trivial, without users behaving abusively or ranting at us about them. Somehow lots of new features have been added, at user request, without having giant posts telling us how we're "Spinning" things and such.

Reporting bugs is good. Harping on them or insisting that your bug is more important than any other issue facing the game is not good.

I'm an engineer, not a PR guy. But I do know enough that it's probably not a great idea to the antagonize people you want to do something for you.

In your various posts, CM, you've accused me of "spinning". You've tried to make the economic case that we need to somehow treat you (and others who share your views) special.

In response I've stated point blank that a) We address bugs / issues in the order in which we think they affect game play. and Our support of the community is because we care about it, anyone who's even remotely familiar with Stardock knows that GalCiv doesn't pay the bills. We just love the game and deeply care about the community as a whole. So don't try to use economic justification for why we should or shouldn't do something.

The issue is not about reporting bugs. It is about tack.  Quite a number of users have said this to you - to you, your perceived bug is crucial and needs to be fixed now. But many other users have bugs / tweaks / features they feel are more important to be addressed.  And your particular "bug" has an easy work around - if the AI having this accidental advantage makes it too hard, turn down the difficulty level.

Hardly, all I asked is that you didn't just make a dismissive "quit whining your pussy hurts" response to those of us in that thread. A group of users posted good, quantitative observations and proof of this bug phenomenon. You called us Star Trek conventioneers who needed to get a life. Without looking at our games you insinuated it was in all liklihood a mistake on our parts. And when someone finally found a clear error in the posted data from you, you finally relented that it "appeared" to be a genuine bug. Plus, while this won't win me any more brownie points with you, you could have avoided 100% of that antagonism had you not instigated it in the first place by becoming defensive and ignoring/denying the issue at hand. You don't have to be a PR guy, you do need to at least not be so biased every time you come across a post from one of us 'insignificant no-lifers'.


No, Brad, I've made the point that while it's refreshing for a dev to have candor, your own elitist and dismissive tone to people who sang your praises numerous times before we dared to cross the line into critiquing some aspect of your response process is not the way to run a business.

I've been aware of your posts on CSIPGS for years, I've been an OD subscriber for the past 2 years, I've been a WinCustomize subscriber since you began that, I'm now a Drengin.net subscriber.

I did this based on your excellent support and your nifty products as well as your accessibility to the customer base.

What I'm trying to do now is not do what you've done, which is take the dialogue between business and customer and let it personalize how I feel about your products because that wouldn't be productive for either of us.

I may just be one person, but I am one person who pays good money for your entire suite of products. I am one person that I am reasonably sure you would like to renew his subscriptions when then they expire. I am one person who cares about your products and wants to see them better. I am one person who has tried to be helpful regarding GalCiv regardless of what you or your groupies think.
Yet, because we've wound up on the opposite side of few conflicts of opinion regarding this game, you have apparently pigeon holed me into some "hardcore game nut" role not worth listening to beyond taking what was an extremely neutral post like the above one and, once again, getting defensive over it. It's ironic that I've been dismissed as a drooling Stardock fanboy in more than one thread here and on CSIPGS, but the head honcho himself apparently finds me an antagonistic ass.

FWIW, I'm sorry that my enthusiasm for your game has caused such bad feelings on both of our parts because that's never been my intent.

CM if what you think you do is just point out bugs then you are sadly mistaken. It is great to point out bugs that should be addressed. It is wrong to continually harp on the same thing over and over again. I don't think you are a hard-core gamer nut I think you are just a regular garden variety nut.

~SDC~

CM,

Take this to email would ya? This thread started out as something nice and you turned it into crap. You're not a codemonkey, you're a thread polluter.

Frogboy, I want a new feature for the boards, an 'ignore user' function.

Senator idleprocess
'Manifest Destiny'
The Mid-Western Confederation
http://idle.thehueys.com/midwest

~SDC~

CM: Has it come to your mind even once during this that just possibly, maybe that you and others who posted were overly aggressive? I'm no fan boy but I was put off by your attitude in many posts.

Clearly FB values your input since you're a "veteran" instead of just a Citizen. But you behave so arrogantly and righteous that you seem blind to just how your posts put off other people.

Hamster, I am well aware that I lack a certain, ahem, diplomatic aspect to my communication skills. I try not to be so abrasive, but it's not something I have much luck with given my track record with rubbing people the wrong way. So, I just speak my mind and don't worry too much about people who can't see my message because they're too concerned with keeping everything happy-smiley.

I didn't enter this thread to hijack it or to pollute it, but to point out that I am sick of this hypocritical hippie love fest that is polluting this board lately. It's one thing to say that maybe some of us could stand to take a deep breath and think about how we're delivering the message. It's quite another to take the stance that anyone who criticises actual bugs and flaws is an ass who doesn't know what a good game it is and is unappreciative.

You can love something and still be critical of its weaknesses.

I think we can agree on that. Let's just let the matter drop. I don't think any good can come from discussing it further. We've laid out our positions pretty clearly at this point.

~SDC~

Hello, it's me again, I started this post...

I wrote this because each time I've seen an "AI is cheating" thread, it'd made me furious. Extremely furious. Nothihg worse than someone reigning in on someone's parade which is the way I've felt CM has handled his posts. I still wish he'd go play HOMM, and then really have a game to complain about that cheats. Even Age of Wonders has to cheat to be competetive.

I've been waiting so long for a game that doesn't need to have extra resources given to it every turn forever, and now that I have it in Gal Civ I don't want to lose it! I want a Galc Civ expansion, expansion 2, Gal Civ 2, Galc Civ 3, Galc Civ 4, etc etc

Right on Jeffery! We have already purchsed the game, and aren't really owed anything more. I for one like to be nice to the guys doing things for me after I've already bought the game. Its not sucking up, its just common curtesy for people doing us a favor.

A little less demanding, and a lot more begging.

~SDC~

I realise that I am now the official poster boy for 'GalCiv A-holes Anonymous' and that posting anything at all in relation to this thread is bound to be unproductive, but in case you cared, I've never once been an "AI is cheating" complainer, not once, never - even defended the non-cheating aspect of the AI many, many times.

I, along with several others, pointed out a now acknowledged bug in the game that may or may not be high on their lists to investigate and fix and I don't even care about that. All of my rain for the parades was because the initial response from Brad was dismissive of this observation and those of us reporting it.

So, go ahead and burn me in effigy if it makes you feel better, I'll be fine. But maybe if you're going to dislike me, may I suggest you find a genuine reason (I'm sure I've given plenty of those )

I hope my many postings in the bug-report-thread don't make me look as if I don't like the game...

When they patched something in 1.04, that I had brought up, that made me finally see: Wow, you really do have an influence on the game you like so much and you really can help them to make you like it even more!

That's why I started putting every little issue that I don't like and not have seen reported yet into that thread.

This sounds pretty painful stuff - I don't think this, and I feel you wouldn't post your concerns if you didn't care about improving the game. We could talk endlessly about communication skills and how best to put the message, but the truth is that any movie, game or other form of entertainment is owned and presented by the CREATOR. The customer then decides if they like it. You don't get your money back if you didn't end up liking the movie, for example.

Computer games are unique in that some developers strive for dynamic development and the evolution of a product, rather than just a release. You'll never hear this kind of exchange about a LucasArts game. I'm sure Brad hears plenty of opinions about his game - some things he changes, others he says: "No, that's what I wanted to present in my game."

My impression from the boards is that all things are heard, only some are changed. Bug squashing occurs in a priority order determined by the developer. These things are indeed the developers perogative.

Say it with me: IT'S....A....GAME.

I like the game, and everyone in this thread seems to be about recognising and improving the game's strengths and reducing or eliminating its perceived weaknesses. I'd rather CM kept playing GalCiv and kept contributing.

CM,

I would hardly label you as any type of fan boy or nut or anything of the like, though I have seen in posts by you what puts people off. I have a friend who is like this in person, and though he may not be trying to "offend" people, it just manages to work out that way. But there is a difference about talking to someone in person, and in writing something down in a forum. I don't buy that you "can't" be tactful, maybe even friendly, when you are just typing a post. It's not hard to phrase something like, "I noticed a problem, and I was wondering if you guys were aware/could fix it." Being decent and civil in a conversation doesn't make you a "happy smiley" person either. It's called courtesy, something lacking in many levels of society today. Something you couldn't seem to show me ("lame") when you had something to say about one of my ideas. You could easily have pointed out disagreement with me, without being insulting. It doesn't take luck, all it takes is showing a reasonable amount of respect to another human being with some common interests. Particularly those who are helpful, responsive, and providing a unique and wonderful service to this community (such as Frogboy and company, moreso than me).

I recognize you to be a very intelligent person, particularly in technical aspect. You write and support you positions very well. But I THINK you, like my friend, underestimate the effect / power of interpersonal dynamics. And you don't have to sacrifice the message just to be nice about relaying it.

Look, I'm not trying to join the "dump on CM" bandwagon, I'm just suggesting that you have a lot to offer the community, and it shouldn't be ruined by not being able to present you message in courteous way. It's not about being nice, smiley, happy, it's just about being decent, that's all.

~SDC~

Mr. Pinard --

That's as bogus an argument as deflecting criticism of a Ford Escort by pointing out that a Trabant is worse. GalCiv, just as with anything else that exists, has its flaws. When such flaws appear to be, in fact, unintended by the designers -- in constrast to conscious compromises made due to real-world constraints -- and users notice them, it would seem appropriate to point out this behavior so it can be clarified and, if time allows and it really WAS unintended, fixed.

CM, for what its worth, I believe you love this game, and I think most of your posts that I've read have been well-reasoned.

Truth is, I think both sides are over-reacting here. Perhaps Brad's suggestion to let it drop is a good one, at least for a while. let things cool off. Give the devs a chance to investigate it. While they haven't come out and said they definitely will, I believe they will. Why? For one thing, this issue isn't completely trivial. More importantly, I think Brad & Co. have way too much pride in their product to not go and see for themselves at some point, and probably at a time not too distant from now.

As for the opinion that the dev team doesn't owe us anything, that's true, they don't. However, if they actually held that opinion themselves, I suspect this place would have *far* fewer people present. I checked out GalCiv because of the wonderful press it got in the forums on another site. I snooped around the forums a bit and discovered how wonderfully supportive the company has been. That's why I bought the game, and why i have now upgraded to Drengin.net, because I think they deserve support. I don't even like strategy games most of the time, but I've found I like this one. Running a good business often goes far in excess of what is required.

Cant we all just sing a song and be happy that we have a great game?

(me as Stevie Wonder->) Trala la lala


/Andreas

Me too.


YES please.
There's a point when talking about something will only make it worse and lead to further unnecessary misunderstandings. I think this point was reached long ago.
So EVERYBODY involved in that discussion, just drop it, okay?


Oooooolways look on th bright side of life.... da-dam, da-dam-da-dam-da-dam

The current gaming generation (unrelated to age) has really become the 'Nag Generation'. I mean, look at most official gaming boards (and this one really looks like a nirvana). They always end up cluttered with people complaining about anything and everything. What a bunch of spoiled brats have we become.

Back in the days ( ), there was no patches, there was no boards, there was no customer support, and only a few games a year (when it was a good year). But, man, were we happy and innocent

Regardless off how well-thought arguments are or how many smilies people may add , one problems with forums and e-mails is that there is always some level of ambiguity. IMO, the best strategy is to err on the side of caution. It's better to have a less "pointed" point that is heard than an accurate one that is perceived in a tone that you didn't intend. I happen to agree that the praise around here is often piled on too thick as well as the criticism of the rest of the industry. That said, too much praise is hardly a problem. In the final equation, I think it definitely works out as a plus.

As for the other side of the coin. Most people who are *good* at customer/tech support will tell you that one of the keys is filtering out everything that doesn't help you find a solution. It's against our nature to let things like that slide, but it does help you get to your job goal of giving support more effectively. I think Brad does a pretty good job ignoring the more negative stuff out there, though he does seem to succumb now and then. (and perhaps more often lately? though I don't really follow the forum closely enough to say for sure) Much more so than because of the game, I'm impressed that he has the wherewithal to do that.

Well, I better shut up before I ramble any further. My main point was to suggest erring on the side of caution.

(If only following advice were as easy as giving it.)

I have posted elsewhere to remember the "Birth of the Federation" development team that quit doing patches because they got so much hassle even when they did patch (let alone upgrade as is common with GC). The BOTF game remains partly unpatched to this day. Let's not assume that SD has infinite patience.

Well, all I know is that everytime we give the Galciv team a chance, they always make the game better the next upgrade. So, I think they have earned some respect for that. I say give the team a chance to do their job how they feel is best to do it. This does not mean players should all sit back and nod like everything is alright when something is not right, but make your case, prove it as well as you can, and let the folks in charge decide where on the list it falls. When the next upgrade comes out, see what got handled and what did not. So far, a lot more has been handled than has not been.