Bestial Wrath

from Demigod Forums

I think we should move our discussion of BW out of playground's thread, guys. Let's talk about it here.

The old school thought that Bestial Wrath was a complete waste. Some of us aren't quite sure anymore.

Since Zechnophobe brought up the idea of adding BW to hybrid UBs, I've been testing it. It works very decently. I sort of miss the movement speed bonus of Inner Beast, but I think that it's worth the trade off. I think that Bestial Wrath 5 is a worthy alternative to Acclimation. Having your endgame weapon damage boosted by 65% for 10 seconds is incredible, and not being able to be slowed is also terrific, especially with annoying slow stacking Regs, ice TBs, and Oaks.

I usually only get it after I have spit and Ooze. I don't really even go for diseased claws anymore because it puts BW 4 back too far. Your damage output at level 13 is insane!

BW and spit are terrific against towers. This is one area where Ooze is useless. Oftentimes I can decimate a tower before the enemy teleports over.

I can get my DPS to well over 600 by level 13 with this build.

 

Problems:

I sometimes run into significant mana issues using this when I only have BotS and Unbreakable Boots. I'm thinking about possibly adding Nature's Reckoning. Anyone else have mana issues trying to run Spit and BW? Any thoughts? Perhaps I should only take 2-3 ranks of it?


Share your thoughts on BW!

4,262 views 30 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Oh, and also, if my opponent decides to stand and fight, I'll do 830 (unmitigated) DPS at level 15 with BW, Putrid Flow, and Ooze. With 50% armor mitigation, my actual DPS drops to 660.

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Fooling around with BW in the past:

I've used Heavan's Wrath to try to get a nice level advantage, and I don't start taking it until level 6 or so, then I get several points in quick succession. I've noticed it doesn't work (well) against any team composition with stuns, since if you are stunned... it no longer is active -> waste of mana. This makes it 'inferior' 1v1 to other UBs, esp to an Ooze UB who will further limit its effectiveness.

However, it rapes a Sedna hard X_X and is probably a superior alternative to Spit in that case; which has always been my issue with it: it doesn't do more DPS than Spit and it's more mana cost. I guess if you get Spit II (most efficient), several points in Ooze, then a few points in BW... lotsa DPS.

Think BW is good against:

Erebus, Sedna, Oak, Queen

Bad Against:

Regulus, TB (kiting), other Beasts, Rook

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

wait what... you're getiing blade of the serpent with UB??! Are you nuts? 

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 3
wait what... you're getiing blade of the serpent with UB??! Are you nuts? 
End of lifekatana's quote

Very viable for hybrid.

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

There's nothing to explain. Just have to watch some replays.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

BotF is perhaps the lamest favor item for a hybrid UB. You can't spam spit or foul grasp. Early game, BotF beast will control a lane, but by level 10, he can't hold a candle to BotS beast. I've seen it time and time again. I can take my mana pool from full to empty to full very quickly using only a favor item slot! If BotF beast wants mana, he'll have to use a slot, and he won't be able to spam like I can.

Seriously, katana, accusing everyone that has a different strategy as being crazy gets a little annoying, especially since my strategy regularly beats up other types of hybrids. I just pwned kira's hybrid UB with it yesterday.

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

BotS beast is very, very weak early levels though ;) But I do agree that it is frequentlly better against most matches.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

That's why you do hit-n-run early game, which is Beast's M.O. with spit, anyways. :P

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting abuggeredhedgie, reply 8
BotS beast is very, very weak early levels though But I do agree that it is frequentlly better against most matches.
End of abuggeredhedgie's quote

 

Who fights early level?

 

You creep, get XP, get levels, get gold, buy items... then you fight.

 

Only scrubs fight early game, it's when you assume the other guy is ass that you do that. Never happens in high level play, unless you're that guy who likes to lose a lot.

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

After doing a couple of in game tests I reckon Bestial Wrath can work well with a Spit and Run type of beast

Relying on Boots of Speed and maxing out inner beast the aim is to use spit and fast attacks to get any possible early kills

However Bestial Wrath is really only useful late game and items that increase your attack speed help A LOT

Blade of the Serpant works well. Biggest problem is the animation time which kinda gives away your intention. No point getting this skill early on. It only really works well late game

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

ah, I tried this with ooze instead of spit. Thats why I didn't win..... the game last 1 hour and i was  4-6 the fact that it was pre vs pug probably didn't help much either. I could post the replay if your interested when I get back to my dorm room, currently I am home for halloween.

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

Who fights early level?



You creep, get XP, get levels, get gold, buy items... then you fight.



Only scrubs fight early game, it's when you assume the other guy is ass that you do that. Never happens in high level play, unless you're that guy who likes to lose a lot.
End of quote
You showed three replays in your UB strat thread. Two were pug stomps and the only high level one had towers on high. Your ooze build has no real early game demolition capacity and you play on high towers, so of course you don't fight early. Even if you send someone to the crystal you still can't break down their towers and start capping gold/portals.

Many good builds force players to fight. Rook can force a fight with his demolition pushes, BotS hybrid UB can force a fight with his neverending mana fueled spits, a general can force a fight with gunners, and so on.

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

What do u guys think of making bestial wrath work like Ooze, meaning its an istant buff (without the animation), but it consumes mana over time as you use, for example:

lvl 1 BW: 25% dmg for 55 mana/s

lvl 2 BW: 35% dmg for 100 mana/s

lvl 3 BW: 45% dmg for 145 mana/s

lvl 4 BW: 55% dmg for 195 mana/s

any thoughts on this?

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Izuz, reply 14
What do u guys think of making bestial wrath work like Ooze, meaning its an istant buff (without the animation), but it consumes mana over time as you use, for example:

lvl 1 BW: 25% dmg for 55 mana/s

lvl 2 BW: 35% dmg for 100 mana/s

lvl 3 BW: 45% dmg for 145 mana/s

lvl 4 BW: 55% dmg for 195 mana/s

any thoughts on this?
End of Izuz's quote

This would be very interesting. Would love to see it in action.

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

Thats what I think too, it would make spit + BW builds something to be afraid from.

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

What do u guys think of making bestial wrath work like Ooze, meaning its an istant buff (without the animation), but it consumes mana over time as you use, for example:

lvl 1 BW: 25% dmg for 55 mana/s

lvl 2 BW: 35% dmg for 100 mana/s

lvl 3 BW: 45% dmg for 145 mana/s

lvl 4 BW: 55% dmg for 195 mana/s

any thoughts on this?

End of quote
I don't like it. I think the UB is already too close to being a 'right click harder' DG, I like the animation time's impact on chasing, it forces one to time it better (or at least interrupt their own grasp).

 

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

I don't like it. I think the UB is already too close to being a 'right click harder' DG, I like the animation time's impact on chasing, it forces one to time it better (or at least interrupt their own grasp).
End of quote

At this point in the game, I've never seen someone use it in a game, I did my best to try it in game but I failed. The only time I used BW properly is when I was attacking a building, other than that, people just run or stun you. It is pretty useless the way it works right now, thats why I thought about that change. Maybe it could be changed differently, but right now its not worth picking that skill.

Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Izuz, reply 18
I don't like it. I think the UB is already too close to being a 'right click harder' DG, I like the animation time's impact on chasing, it forces one to time it better (or at least interrupt their own grasp).
At this point in the game, I've never seen someone use it in a game, I did my best to try it in game but I failed. The only time I used BW properly is when I was attacking a building, other than that, people just run or stun you. It is pretty useless the way it works right now, thats why I thought about that change. Maybe it could be changed differently, but right now its not worth picking that skill.
End of Izuz's quote
It's an absolutely amazing skill, one of the best in the game.

This is my build:

  1. Spit
  2. Oooze
  3. save
  4. Spit+Ooze II
  5. Grasp
  6. save
  7. Spit+Ooze III
  8. Diseased Claws
  9. save
  10. Spit+Oooze IV
  11. Inner Beast
  12. IB II
  13. IB III
  14. save
  15. Putrid Flows+Acclimation
  16. Beastial Wrath
  17. BW II
  18. BW III
  19. BW IV
  20. Unrelenting Wrath

Basically my build works in Beastial Wrath when it makes the most sense - at the end of the game.

 

The idea proposed seems to be attempting to make the ability into a spit alternative early game, but here's the problem with it:

At level 10 you do 226.5 DPS without any items at all, so let's just inflate it a bit and say you've got an item or two that bump you up to 250'ish.

So you're doing 250 DPS, against a DG with 40% mitigation that drops down to 60% damage, or 150 DPS, which conveniently is the amount of damage Spit does at that level. Max rank BW IV would raise that to 232.5 DPS, only an 82.5 DPS increase, the rough equivalent of rank 2 Spit, minus the advantage of being a ranged attack.

The only way to make BW into an ability which is competitive early game is to either redesign it completely or buff it to values which would just make it balls-out insane late game, we're talking 85% or more weapon damage, which would be totally inappropriate when players reach level 15+.

As-is BW stands as king of late game abilities. Between Acclimation, Putrid Flows, and Beastial Wrath, UB is absolutely devestating late game; literally no other DG can take him solo, he can even 2v1 other level 20 DGs if everyone's items are on equal footing.

 

So in conclusion, BW is just never going to be effective early to mid game (unless you get fed an absolutely ridiculous amount), and turning it into an on-command damage toggle seems like an unnecessary icrease in UB's already supreme late game capacity.

Reply #20 from Demigod Forums Top

I see what you mean, UB is very powerful late game with acclimation, ooze and BW if u take over stats. But to be honest, rare are the games where u go beyong lvl 15 at most. Almost everyone plays cata 3v3, and those games end around lvl 12.

The idea proposed seems to be attempting to make the ability into a spit alternative early game
End of quote

Actually no, my idea is to make it a playable skill so that players can incorporate it in their builds during the first 10 lvls, basically to offer another alternative from the spit + ooze that I see almost all the time.

Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top

The idea proposed seems to be attempting to make the ability into a spit alternative early game
End of quote

Actually no, my idea is to make it a playable skill so that players can incorporate it in their builds during the first 10 lvls, basically to offer another alternative from the spit + ooze that I see almost all the time.
End of quote
That's exactly what I said though. You say it should be an alternative to the spit+ooze combo, so it's either a spit alternative or an ooze alternative. I didn't mention ooze because it's AoE, an attack speed reduction, and higher DPS than your proposed BW, plus costs no mana, so I assumed it was spit you were trying to replace.

Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top

Ok I got confused.

So you're doing 250 DPS, against a DG with 40% mitigation that drops down to 60% damage, or 150 DPS, which conveniently is the amount of damage Spit does at that level. Max rank BW IV would raise that to 232.5 DPS, only an 82.5 DPS increase, the rough equivalent of rank 2 Spit, minus the advantage of being a ranged attack.

The only way to make BW into an ability which is competitive early game is to either redesign it completely or buff it to values which would just make it balls-out insane late game, we're talking 85% or more weapon damage, which would be totally inappropriate when players reach level 15+.
End of quote

Looking at your numbers again, BW + any skill is always inferior to spit + Ooze during first 10 levels, If I uderstand you correctly. And if the damage of BW is buffed up then it would be rediculous lategame. What Im suggesting is to make it an on-command toggle damage, maybe players could invested 1 point in it at say lvl 11, and delay taking inner beast until lvl 12 (acclimation is still possible at 15, but not purital flow). After all 25% damage increase is better than that first point of inner beast.

Reply #23 from Demigod Forums Top

Looking at your numbers again, BW + any skill is always inferior to spit + Ooze during first 10 levels
End of quote
It really is.
What Im suggesting is to make it an on-command toggle damage
End of quote
I can see the appeal of taking one point in it, but the massive buff even that minor change would entail (jumping from less than 50% uptime to a potential 100% uptime, and increasing late game mobility when using the ability) just doesn't seem worth it to me, especially when a single point of Diseased Claws is already a pretty good option. Heck, even just taking BW at 11 isn't terrible, you can interrupt your own foul grasp to cast, it doesn't end the stun on your target, just yourself, so you can be guaranteed to stay in melee range for it.

Aside from being a net power increase I also think this is complexity decrease for an already largely point and click character. I just don't like it, in all honesty.

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

Ok guys, about 'buffing' BW;  I was thinking about it long ago, but wasn't gonna say because of same reasons obscenitor said(but wasnt thinking on Ooze way activation): it's just that BW is too good on high lvls, and beast is already super-good dg, and it would be unfair to other dg if beast get BW buffed. However, it can be done(!) and still it would not be so much stronger on higher lvls, that it would be balls-out insane late game as obscenitor said.

Here are the ways to buff it in such a way - but bare in mind that still i wouldnt force that before other dg get their more needed buffs and balancing! :

I think it is simple; just increase the duration of BW to 10 sec on all lvls. Ppl will than have to run 10sec from beast (instead of 7) if they don't want to take that extra dmg, or will not run, but stand and fight. (Also, cd should be 20 sec in all lvls in that case)

Next, mana cost could be little cheaper; from 550/700/850/1000/1000 > 500/650/800/950/950. (just like spit) or (i like it better) 500/625/750/875/1000. !!

Lastly, Unrelenting wrath could get additional buff to 'move speed cannot be reduced' to give beast effect of having 50% reductions to stun time. (i also thought about that to put it in acclimation, by also decreasing the dmg reduction or smth else. (and, by the way, it seems that acclimation doesn't have cooldown!! it is always active, whenever sbdy hits beast over 500dmg. Thake that team burst damage!  ..I'm not sure what to say. It really seems OP)

But, i know, that 50% stun reduction also seems OP, right? Give me your opinion (i think i already know what you're gonna say :P )

 

AND, also, not to forget, an alternate version to BW (half combined with previous suggestions; and closer to OP-ness(!) obscenitor was talking about :grin: ) is to give BW a bonus move OR att speed. I know - OP!  But maybe not, if applied in small amount and very clever. ;)

I'm not sure myself how it would look like, i have some thought though, but dont dare to write it down yet. Little later. When a think about it more deeply.

 

EDIT:

alternative ideas: BW deals +25%/40/55/70/70 per lvl. Ah, just smth i wanted to mention; another way to make it better for early game, but i don't think it's good idea, i like better what i suggested before. (just had to mention :) )

SECOND THING, about bonus move or att speed in BW. I think bonus move would be better that att sp, if i'm to choose. That movement speed would be just +5% on all BW lvls. I think it's not much to ask. Don't think it would be OP, and definitely will help for 'enemies running from BW' at early lvls.

If att speed bonus was to implemented, it should be +10% on all lvl, cause +5% is really small amount (it isnt comparable with +5% move speed). OR that +10% bonus could be added just to Unrelenting Wratho_O   Anyway, it's just all ideas i could get for if ever BW is to be getting buffed. 

Not that it relly needs to |-)

Reply #25 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Epiphenomenon, reply 7
BotF is perhaps the lamest favor item for a hybrid UB. You can't spam spit or foul grasp. Early game, BotF beast will control a lane, but by level 10, he can't hold a candle to BotS beast. I've seen it time and time again. I can take my mana pool from full to empty to full very quickly using only a favor item slot! If BotF beast wants mana, he'll have to use a slot, and he won't be able to spam like I can.

Seriously, katana, accusing everyone that has a different strategy as being crazy gets a little annoying, especially since my strategy regularly beats up other types of hybrids. I just pwned kira's hybrid UB with it yesterday.
End of Epiphenomenon's quote

 

It is viable, but many many times that extra 800hp helps me out way more then being able to harras someone with spit. And the extra mana a helm gives u combined with unbreakable boots is more then enough to kill everyone in a 3v3 or a 1v1 with a blade UB.

 

On the BW topic, if it had 50% less on all stuns or something it would be more viable.  People either run when u use it making it a waste of mana or stun right as you pop it. You miss out on the aa when casting and maybe even that last spit u need when they are running for it. You also wont have the speed to catch many DGs.  I might try it with wand of speed though. Spit stun activate wand cast BW and mow them down..

 

I just did the build i was talking about, were way to many options for me to use so erebus owned me a few times. but i got the hang out it by lvl 19.  The damage is crazy past lvl 15.  Had a problem with people getting away, if our reg wasn't retarded would of had alot more kills and mageslayer by lvl 15.  I think if i could play it a few more times get my combo down it could be a very viable build.  But i was playing against a bnch of newbies so I can't really tell.

http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&tab=popular&show=details&id=101794&st=0#6614960

 

I played it again and I got own by another UB with blood and the same erebus.  I must be playing it wrong.  Past lvl 12 it starts shineing but be very careful before that you are squishy as hell.