anyone bother to notice that even as "weak" vasari are... people still play them, and in general, there are more vasari players than there are tec in a given game?   (even including how most people starting multiplayer play tec for a a while before moving on)

Vasari have some amazing ablities... that seriously make up for thier short falls... ima not even going to mention thier scouts...

their hanger bays can completely immobalize all enemy strike craft in a large radius for a long period of time... 2 hanger bays that have their ablity staggered can keep all strike craft down for as long as they have antimatter.

(however... their significantly nerfed jam weapons is... pathetic... but whatever)

thier phase missle platforms can STOP aintimatter regen for... what... 600 seconds. thats 10 min. thats freaking awsome.  A progen without antimatter is preety useless.

overseers are the only support cruiser that can stack thier healing. as long as they have antimatter... whatever even a small group of them are pointing at will not die.  nothing more evil than warping in a few overseers to repair that he thought he almsot had beat (and took great casuaties doing so... expecially cause of your hanger bays that meant he couldnt use bombers)

subverters are EVIL. the ablity to AOE disable for 20 seconds... mmm... sinister...

after research... their ships become 8% cheaper (and everything else, mind you), and they get 15% more supply... together this almost brings thier ships up to par.

phase gates are also awsome. RA is... ok.

THe problem, of course... is that in a multiplayer game... the vasari dont often get the chance to bring out their good ablities because the game just tends to be over too quick (and if they are being offencive... they cant really use their defencive structures well)... while the other races can bring out their slightly less good ablities much sooner.   all races have awsome ablities, and awsome combos... but that takes some serious effort on everyone's part.

One thing's for sure: The problem of the Skirmisher being weak isn't helped at all by the insane speed at which multiplayer is played. It's just too damn fast to give one time to micromanage units properly. Obviously, with it's reasonably high stamina and great speed plus the fast regeneration ability, the Skirmisher is a top candidate for a 'retreat, repair, return' tactic - the aforementioned guerilla warfare from the lore. Problem is as was already stated that the Skirmisher simply in't very dangerous and that on multiplayer, you'd be hard pressed to manage individual Skirmishers like that. Also, humans like to focus-fire a lot on individual ships which the developers weren't meaning for, either (this is why they have the unintuitive shield mitigation system in place). They were aiming for 'epic'm cinematic-style battles - but in a competetive environment that goes straight out the window and we are left with not-so-epic massed scout exploit attacks instead.

I think you are partly right in that the developers are actually quite happy with balance on the Skirmisher (sidenote: It's interesting how no developers have posted an 'official' opinion here). Like I explained, I believe the developers simply had a different idea about how MP would play out. IMO, they intended for much more of the infamous guerilla style such as jumping in carriers (joined by skirmishers?), bombing a structure to pieces then withdrawing to repair. It just simply isn't viable on MP with the speed and the broken units (primarily the scout). The AI and its siege frigate runs, I believe, clearly hints at how the developers envisioned gameplay.

The thing is, the current issues being brought up, are centered on MP. In SP you dont see these issues as the AI isnt going to rush you 10 minutes into the game with Scouts. The AI doesnt utilize scouts outside of what they are intended for. But like usual you give a human a video game and he will find a way to exploit it. Now that Scout Spam has really caught on and MP players are now constantly being hit earlier and earlier in the game, they want this to stop. And some on here Im sure want it worked out so they can continue to use Scout Spam.

The fact that people are upset and want a nerf/buff for scouts is just mindboggling to me. The only place its going to make positive effects ARE MP. SP will either go on with their games unchanged by the nerf/buff OR its going to effect how useful the scouts are when they are attached to a fleet.

But either way, MP will see another exploit sometime soon after the nerf/buff. Because those who live off of finding another "Strategy" as they like to call it. (I call it mindless spamming no real strategy what so ever) Will find something else to exploit. Thats just the life of MP its fast, and the units are used for purposes they werent originally designed for. This inturn creates very obvious gaps between particular units between races. Which is not noticed in SP.

When demanding for a nerf/buff. Some of the people asking for it should think about how different SP is to MP and consider how its going to effect both. Not just MP.

Likewise, though, if the current problem that the MP people want to solve isn't noticed in single player, the tweak that they request probably won't be noticed either.

Thats if its not noticed. I can guarantee all this nerf/buff is going to do nothing but open up another spam. Thats all its ever done. Because people just dont learn. And in a month and a half after the nerf/buff people will be right back in here asking for another nerf/buff because something else is now broken thanks to the nerf/buff. This is an endless cycle.

The reason Im against this whole nerf the scout buff the skirm is simple. Its only going to change those units for now, eventually youll be asking for something else because now that those two are changed, something else is now broken. Eventually the now very balanced game, is going to be right back to being very unbalanced.

And the scout spam issue. Its MP players fault that they are having that issue. MP players created the problem. SP shouldnt be paying for it. You guys wanted to play other people, you  guys wanted to come up with some way to overcome your opponent with no recourse. Now you have to deal with the very unthoughtful spam strategy. Live with it, its called consequences. You dont like the spamming either create a silent law. It is possible. The SB for example. Its considered cheating if you exploit the fact that going above it you can use your fleet without taking fire from the SB. People do it but its frowned upon. The same thing with spam. Its an exploit, which if the MP decided to frown upon it wouldnt be so bad. But Ive seen alot of people on here fighting for spam as if its key to MP. Which Im pretty sure its not. Just everyone does it now, so to counter you have to spam in return. The other way, is to fight for a better AI and go back to SP. Im pretty sure no one in MP wants to go back to SP.

The fact is, the ONLY place these two units are creating issues is MP, if they were an issue on both SP and MP id be for it. But its not.

Correction. I am awesome

Overseers suck.  They are too expensive, come too late in the tech tree, are an extreme pain and hassle to micromanage, turn way too slow to be effective in the event that you DO try to micromanage them, drop like flies instantaneously to any fighters in the grav well, left to their own devices will either heal the wrong ship, the same ship, or both the wrong AND the same ship, yadda yadda (I could go on and on)....  I think the best use of the Overseer is simply to die as quickly as possible, opening that ship slot up for a ship I should have bought instead of the Overseer.

They were nerferd way too hard back in the day, so I haven't used them since.  I haven't seen a subverter used in hundreds of online games, except for one of your replays where they were used defensively in a stalemate situation where your opponents basically got tired of waiting and just attacked.

Or, quite frequently they will heal NO ship, even though they could have healed one before it died (they were pointing straight at it, they were in range, they had antimatter, etc).

Like I said, I could go on and on and on all day long about this superb, fantasitic support cruiser.  It is absolutely a vital component of any Vasari fleet.

Raging, you just won't get the respect you deserve without an Elite Warlord's Lobby.  The single players have got medal after medal and there's nothing for online, the chat names aren't even stacked by number of games or wins, or colour-coded, pink for new player, blue for smurf....  Where's a chap to have his boots buffed?

Online could use some changes, I hope that it's improved by the expansion.  I'd like to be able to find out more about the games that have already started.  A 1v1 ladder would be fun, as well as a stats screen... how about a detailed breakdown of every unit that a player had made online, so we could check if Raging truly is the scout tycoon, or whether he has a rival....

Overseers and Subverters do seem very lightly built compared to the other cruisers, and the heal ability on the Overseer is fiddly- just like returning fleets and everything else, perhaps there should be a whip button to get forced labour working harder?

Apart from the medals, there isn't the divide between single players and multi player that is being claimed.  Almost all online players have played single player and any experienced online player is an accomplished single player.  The AI is involved in multi constantly after drops.  Also, there is no evidence that the game was designed specifically for vast single player games, there were no epic 200 planet maps included with the game and the vast majority of the maps are small or medium sized maps designed for quick multiplayer games.

The new expansion should alter early spam because of the feed changes, which will be very welcome.  Perhaps the alterations to the first tier units should wait until then...?

I think the units in game are pretty close to being balanced there is just a few tweaks that need to be made.Lf can be used now.Lrf are used.Flak is used,Bombers are used.Most support cruisers are used.Hc are used.If they can bring scouts into line and make fighters live longer and be more useful against lrf then the units will be close to all being useful.

How would single players "pay" for any of the changes related to the game that are drive by multiplayer concerns?  I don't understand how any of the changes would in any way be detrimental to them.

(Do the majority of people who play it in single player even have the most updated version of the game and do they keep up with the game updates?  Have they ever even visited this forum or website other than to perhaps learn about Impulse and the expansions?  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the majority of Sins players are playing the version that came on the DVD and have never even been to this website.  It would be interesting to see Stardock's stats comparing the number of copies sold to the number of CD keys that have been registered.)

I mean, it just doesn't make much sense that someone who only plays the game against the AI is going to be real discerning about things like balance issues or even notice them.  The AI is so handicapped compared to a human player that the issue of "balance" just wouldn't ever come up for most players, most of whom have probably never visited these forums.

This notion that good players will spam out a single unit is a romantic myth.  That doesn't work against other good players.  Instead you need to produce your fighting units plus support units (flaks, hoshikos/guardians/overseers, a couple carriers perhaps, etc.).  I will never make a fleet composed of a single unit unless there is a really good competitive reason for it (the other guy spammed out all light frigates and/or scouts) or it's in the first 15 minutes of the game when I haven't been able to research many units anyway.

What's wrong with striving to improve the game and make it better?  If we "lived with it" we'd still be playing the game as it was in the Beta.  Instead we want to improve the game to make it the best it can be.

How is spam an exploit?  Spam is a strategic (or unstragetic) choice that may or may not make strategic sense in various circumstances.  It isn't the spam itself that has upset people, it's that this particular type of spam leaves people with little choice but to respond with their own similar spam (if they have the right race for it) and the game becomes one of spamming out scouts and light frigates.  In contrast, if someone is mindlessly spamming out LRMs there are various ways to counter it (your own LRMs plus some repair support ships and perhaps heavy fighting cruisers and carries with fighters, etc.).

It's not an issue for single player, but if being good for single player were all that the developers wanted to concern themselves with then there wouldn't have ever been any reason to balance units or modify units in the past other than to fix game bugs.  It's not the undiscerning single player people who drive the improvement of the game.

What exactly is the basis of and reason for your hostility towards the multiplayer people anyway?

You know, I don't think it's that Vasari players don't appreciate the Subverter, rather I suspect that the problem is that they just don't get to the point where they feel comfortable researching and spending money on them because they are busy struggling to deal with other issues (like keeping themselves from getting squashed by TEC and Advent and building starbases).  I agree with your observation; you really don't see Subverters around too often.

That is a funny idea.  Perhaps ICO could keep track of CD-keys' records and then have smurfs' names come up in blue and noobies' names come up in pink.

A 1v1 (and even 2v2) ladder is doable and custom maps could even be designed with spectator spots on them (see the one Astax made of Point Blank).  There are sites where ladders could be set up.  The problem would be getting people organized to play them and finding people who would want to play them and then managing the ladder.

I'm too lazy to quote what i want out of all this right now, so pay attention:

DesConnor- I agree that some changes need to be done to ICO.  In particular, there needs to be some sort of signal, maybe a new line in the game description, that tells which version of the game is being played and whether it is the expansion or vanilla.  Player ratings do sound like a good idea.  Personally, i'd like to add a slot for "Favored Unit", so people don't start using the same ships over and over.  (I think this alone would pretty much kill spam outright.)

Allegience-  I agree that the Nerf/Buff will only lead to other problems somewhere else.  However, not fixing the problem that there is now is no better.  1- Skirmisher need minus 1 to their supply OR up to 3 dps added to make them viable in early game.  2- Navigators need a minus 1 to their supply to make them equal to the other scouts.  They're partly to blame for not fielding more skirmishers.  (I generally field five, which, if they were dropped 1 point, would mean 1 extra skirm.)

Agent of Karma- As for your thoughts on overseers, i agree they should drop 1 place in the tech tree to make them a bit easier to get for the trouble they are, but as for their uselessness in autocast, i generally micro my antimatter support ships anyway so they do exactly what i need them to.  Still, their personal AI does need to be fixed.  (Has anyone else noticed that the AI for your OWN units sucks balls in general?  I've been constantly having my support ships run right into the middle of a group of enemies.  Not to attack, but just to go there.  Specifically the Cielo Command Cruiser.)  I don't have enough expierience with subverters to voice an opinion at this time.

Mindseye-  I don't think fighters need to be tampered with AT ALL.  Their stats are far too fragile to be messing with in general.  Even the SLIGHTEST buff or nerf could make them unstoppable or break them alltogether.  Scouts could use a MINOR tweak here and there, but i don't think it's vital enough that they require it, except Navigator's Supply.  (3 as opposed to the 2 of other races.)

DirtySanchezz- I've had the game registered since i bought it about 2ish years ago, and have generally done my best to keep updated, espessially since i bought entrenchment.  I think most people would register the game when they bought it if they were able to, and that it is not really your place to say they don't since you ARE here.  Also, i've only recently joined the forums on a whim.  Though they are what got me to try MP.  As a previously religious SP advocate, i can say that ANY change to the units will make a massive difference to the SP game, with the exception of fixing what's broken.  (Damnedable Illuminators!) 

Single player should be a focus for the devs more than MP, because nearly everyone who buys the game will play SP.  They spent a lot of time making a game AI (And i think there are only minor issues with it myself), and there's no way they're just going to throw it all out the window for a handfull of their target audience to make THEIR game expierience better.

That said, if what the MP people want will only be a minor change, or better yet, will also improve SP, then they should by all means go for it.

I don't think allegience is being hostile towards MP people.  He's just trying to get them to look at how many of these problems are the MP people's own fault.  Spam in general should not be a basis for a game change.  IF you want something fixed, look at a 1-1 balance of its racial equivalents, as well as what the OTHER ships of that race can do that might make up for it.

Sorry if i got people mixed up, i tried to keep this organized bu t i have the attention span of a...hey, a cookie!

Subverters... god, they are a pale shadow of what they used to be. But I still use them commonly, the problem is that you have to micro them like a god, know when to hold them in reserve, and bring 2x as many as would seem prudent because half need to be auto cast off, and the other half need to be autocasting the missile debuff. I wish the Subverter nerf from way back would be completely repealed... I could care less about Returning Armada (it was a crutch for the skilless in it's OP state, although it's just useless now), but the subverter nerf was a vicious blow. That said, they are still some of my favorite units.

Overseers... do fine by me, honestly. But I play on normal speeds, not fast (other than income, which is fast), so that might have some impact. My only beef with them is that they wait too long to heal or simply don't heal at all, and their target selection seems entirely random. The AI really needs some tweaking.

Honestly the ship I usually take last on the tech tree are the Enforcers, I simply can't justify them... ironically, I just double up on Skirmishers in their place most of the time... at least the anti-matter debuff makes itself useful. I compensate with extra Subverters and Assailants for the lost dps... not ideal, but... you do what you must.

I don't know when fighters and scouts got pulled into the fray, but leave the fighters alone, and the scouts - I'm not qualified to make any suggestions for them... I mostly use them for scouting and neutrals, not combat... hell, I barely even mine sweep... it's easier to just go around them. Besides, it's funny colonizing a world that's has an enemy's mine field in place, and watching pirates/other enemies fly into it... free defense.

Alleigiance86 is an ornery bastard, but he's good people. Don't hate on him, because he's likely not hating on you... he just has a confrontational nature. Also, I hate spam - I think it is the last refuge of an unimaginative mind, and I think it's unsportsmanlike as all hell - conduct unbecoming of an honorable person. But hey, I'm oldschool, so nevermind me.

/rant

-Itharus

EARLY spam is conduct unbecoming.  LATE spam is suicide.  I think this distinction needs to be made.

Also, don't know if that last bit was aimed at me or not, but i'm not hating on Allegience.  I just disagree with a few of his ideas from time to time.

I was fully responding to sanchez. Im an avid SP player, and i respect MP cause people are going to like what theyre going to like. But I dont want SP effected because of MP's playing style. If they could do something without effecting another unit (which i doubt) id be all for it. But its not just Vas. People are looking to change. Vas is just the cover page. Because in MP they are the ones effected most by the early on spamming. But changing just them isnt going to stunt the Spam issue. If they just changed the skirm and nav them Im willing to admit their might be no sizeable changes that would filter over to another unit. But Ive seen some asking for the Advent Scout nerfed a bit. The more units you branch out to nerf/buff your going to start effecting more units around them.

Please tell me how SP has ever been significantly affected by any changes made on account of MP?  Or, if you can point to such an occasion, how has it been a negative change?

Personally I can't tell much of a difference in SP no matter what has happened.  The few BIG changes - yeah, they have made a difference (nerfing Returning Armada, for instance).  But fine-grade unit-to-unit rebalancing?  Come on... how would you even know, playing SP?  The game will play the exact same way.  You will always be able to beat the AI no matter what unit you want to spam out, or what combination of units.  LRMs can be buffed or nerfed, scouts can be buffed or nerfed, carriers can be buffed or nerfed, etc. and if you aren't told in the patch notes, you will never know the difference in SP!

Some guy in one of these threads recently said something on the order of "In the past, the SP community has been told that its opinions don't count."  Your opinions DO count as much as anyone else's with regards to things like "gameplay mechanic," yadda yadda.  But I don't think they count as much on the subject of fine unit-to-unit balance, because you simply aren't experts on fine unit-to-unit balance, and you simply aren't affected by fine unit-to-unit balance.  In fact, playing SP, you don't even SEE fine unit-to-unit balance.

Is that so hard to see, or comprehend?

If it will play exactly the same in SP, it would be the same for MP.  THe entire core of each game type is exclusively dependant on the units.  Any change at all would have an impact, regardless of what it was.  Now, i'm not saying SP people would CARE about the changes in question, in fact, they would improve the Vasari a bit.  (I've been playing them exclusively recently and am beginning to see a few of the problems.  Primarily their supply cost.  Lower that or raise dps on most of the ships and it will even out, in 1 to 1 scenarios.  However, we have to look at the impact on late-game too.

Let see karma, maybe all the nerf/buffs over the past couple years that people rallied for. That left the game in a state of unbalance. Id call that something that MP championed and SP followed. You wanna be a dick, fine, keep pushing buttons.

Just because I disagree doesnt mean you can come in here with your arrogant attitude and act like you have no class. Your not a badass. So please stop trying to act like one.

So you are saying the game wasn't in a state of huge imbalance before nerfs and buffs?  BWAAA HA HA!  There's a saying:  If someone is hanging himself, don't interfere, just keep feeding him rope.  I don't need to comment any further on your statements.

Either way, you have no case.  Almost any change that has been made to the game can easily be retracted by you simply using the correct initialization files, easily edited.  In other words, MP has done nothing to your single player experience, because you can easily play the game in the state it once was.  So who's being the dick and pushing buttons?

So the game was perfect when it shipped?  What about uber-siege frigs of doom?  Would you call that an example of perfection?

As far as I know, IT WAS THE SP COMMUNITY, NOT THE MP COMMUNITY that screamed bloody murder about those siege frigs, and they were nerfed.  I say that because I seem to be the only MP person I know of that has argued for keeping them nerfed.  My posts on this are always swamped by other MP-ers who want to return the siege frigs to their original incarnation.

So did you like those uber-siege frigs of doom or not, Allegiance?

SOLUTIONS FOR SP-ers WHO DON'T LIKE IMBALANCES INTRODUCED BY THE ASSHOLE MP-ers:

1) Don't update your game.  Sound easy enough?  Let me try to make it easier.  You know that "update game" button?  Don't push that.

2) If you have a cd (I presume one was released?), uninstall your game, then reinstall from cd.  Then see #1 above.

3) Either download config files from an earlier game version, or manually edit the config files to mod the game back to its original form.  Then see #1 above.

4) There used to be a way to download previous versions of the game.  Google it, do it, then see #1 above.

They are suppose to be the early game counter to lrf because they are the only unit with correct fire to counter them besides hc which arent an option.Since you only need a handful of flak to counter fighters and its not possible to counter then I say it needs a fix.If you build a counter there has to be some return on it or strategy is out.

I recently jumped on to MP play (as some of you may have noticed). I have been rocked pretty much nonstop (due to poor micro / lousy gameplay / quitter teammates) but i will say that I got destroyed faster and harder playing as Vas than any other (I play on random). You really do have to be massively skilled on micro to get your fleet doing much of anything compared to an equal fleet of any other race, even if you are playing an epic noob (ahem, me).

I think I have only had one game where i got enough planets or research stations to get to subverters and overseers. I love the ever-loving-piss out of them, but i can't quite get there. Also, I am a supporting player in most games and totally willing to follow a teammates lead. Both of which lead me to weaker fleets/empires.

In response to my most confrotational friend allegiance: I still think the game gets improved with the updates/hotfixes/patches/expansions that the mp-ers like. I still play more SP than MP and I think after the last hotfix, SP play improved a lot. But I also a gree that some of the changes make no sense for SP play. Seige frigates being a great deal more used in SP.

*yawn*

good morning all.

None of these solutions are realistic for the people who want to play entrenchment.  You have to get the latest update before you can install it.