wow, it's almost been 4 hours simce someone posted on this string...

...

...

...DOH!

Well then, bakerstreet,
let me keep this going with a headline from the war in Iraq that I can't understand why its not in boldface print everywhere:

Discovery of Chemical Suits Reinforces Concerns

CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar — A U.S. general said Wednesday the discovery of 3,000 chemical suits in a central Iraqi hospital that had been used as an Iraqi base raised concern that Saddam Hussein's regime was prepared to use chemical weapons.....

In addition to the chemical suits, the Central Command reported earlier that Marines found and confiscated gas masks and nerve gas antidote injectors in the hospital near An Nasiriyah.

He can't use chemicial weapons, remember he said he doesn't have any.

gee, wonder what all those suits are for? Halloween?

my grandfather didn't spend a lot of time telling us about his World War I experiences, but i do know that the ge, err.. enemy hit his unit with poison gas two times ( mustard gas blistering agent). The first time, aprrox. 25% of the soldiers didn't have gas masks because they'd thrown them away somewhere along the line. Panic reigned, several soldiers went crazy and were shot for trying to kill their comrades for their gas masks, and 30% casualties were suffered. When it happened again about 6 days later, everyone had a mask, no one went crazy, they suffered some treatable chemical burns of the exposed skin areas. No one died, no one had to go to the hospital.

The US has chemical suits and injectors and gas masks. Does that mean we're planning to use chemical weapons?

I saw some shots of Baghdad in the sand storm and thought it looked surreal and biblical with everything bathed in red light and the solid look the air had.

Tariq Aziz expressed his dismay that the Americans are accusing them of planning to use chem or bio weapons. He said he's afraid the US is planning to use them and blame Iraq. I wonder, if they do get used, is it possible to tell where they came from?

David
What you say is very distressing. Why do you live here if you feel your government is capable of that?
You know of Iraq's atrocities, you can't possibly put us in the same league

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/26/international/worldspecial/26CND-MILI.html?ex=1049950800&en=c68bb0a5640c23e3&ei=5004&partner=UNTD


Hey I mentioned the uprising in a Iraq city... to bad it was probably stopped by thier own troops.


Oh and as wierd it seems for Iraq to have all of those chem siuts and gas masks being that there is no real potential of being attacked that way (well maybe gas), I am waiting for them to actually find these weapons. That is the proof in the pudding.

I don't think Saddam will use gas though, cause he wants to say that he doesn't have any and I am sure he want to play the role of victom here after he draws out the war and plays it out on TV


Hey Bakerstreet, everybody was just waiting until the 3rd week to see what happens like I said. Then they'll post like crazy cause of what is happening.

"Tariq Aziz expressed his dismay that the Americans are accusing them of planning to use chem or bio weapons. He said he's afraid the US is planning to use them and blame Iraq. I wonder, if they do get used, is it possible to tell where they came from?" - DavidK

i have erased my intended technical posting in regards to the above, and have only the following to say: " "

aw c'mon Xerraire, I didn't say the US would use gas, I just find the logic very selective. The US does have all these suits and stuff so why shouldn't Iraq have them too? Armies have these things... on both sides.

It's just like the Geneva Convention complaints from Rumsfeld applying to Iraq but not to us when we publically humiliated and villified the American Taliban guy and lots of other captured soldiers being sent to Guantanamo.

It sounds too much like propoganda when it's only bad when they do it but not when we do.

Aziz is the Iraqi foreign minister, so him saying what he did is their answer to the Pentagon issuing statements that Iraq is planning to use gas, which he claims they don't have. He was understandibly upset speaking to the UN today, his country is being invaded.

No I don't put the US in the same league as Iraq nor would I paint our military in a bad light. I do put Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney in the same league (or worse). They're some of the guys that gave Saddam $50 million right after he gassed the Kurds with gas we gave him. So why weren't they upset with him then?. I also think G W Bush is the worst president America has ever had... ever. But I felt that way before 9/11 and even more so after. And I still want to know who attacked us that day.

Bangkokboy - I didn't mean to imply that our military would do that but on re-reading my post I can see where you would think that's what I meant. I was thinking of all the other groups that could benefit from gas being used, blamed on the Iraqis, There's quite a few that would have the capability to fake something like that and would love to see it happen. Like Iran, Israel, who knows, I can think of some others too. In the movie about the A-bomb in the soda machine at the SuperBowl (can't remember the name, Tom Clancy story) they figured out where the bomb came from to avert a world war. I just wondered if that type of technology really exists and would it be used in Iraq.

I was talking to someone today about the war and they mentioned how it would 'show the world' when Iraq used WMD against our troops. I told them that there were people, some I know a quite well, that would just claim we did it to ourselves to frame Iraq. His opinion of such folk was pretty much my own. I have decided that the people we most want to appease don't deserve the effort.

I saw a figure today. In the two months following Normandy, 14,000 civilians were killed in the drive across France. I won't post any of the figures I have heard, because others here will counter them with Al Jazeera propaganda. Fact is, though, If Hussein can't get real civilian fatalities, he'll make his own.

Just know, ye of little faith, that when Saddam Hussein buys US uniforms, puts tanks beside elementary schools, and sends women and children out in front of his troops as human shields, YOU are the ones he *knows* he can count on. Every self-deprecating whine from within the US and ounce of derision from those *who were once* our allies is incentive for him to slaughter a few more civilians and blame us for it. And before you thumb your nose at that, remember where you are posting, and how many people can read this.


*****


"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam

is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came

rollin' thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman

As a lighthearted aside, a little while ago I read the line:

"CNN reported a column of elite Republican Guard units streaming out of Baghdad this morning toward US forces massed near the southern city of Najaf..."

and all i could see in my head was an army of orcs pouring out of the gates of Mordor. I didn't see the Two Towers til about a week ago, it's still too fresh. lmao.

Sorry, back to the fray...


*****


France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals. France is miserable

because it is filled with Frenchmen, and Frenchmen are miserable

because they live in France. -Mark Twain

Letterman is a funny guy.

I don't think there's any point in discussing this any further here. Believe it or not I take this stuff seriously. I think you would be surprised how much we ideologically agree. I despise brutal dictatorial political regimes. I also believe in the potential for human achievement. Right now I see the world being set ablaze and our leaders throwing gasoline on the fire.

Our nations greatest emissaries are the imigrants and students who return to their countries from America with a vision of what life can be. Most have a dream they carry back to an environment of repression and exclusion, too often implanted and supported by the very democracy that inspired them.

Rather than "stabilize" a region by arming a heinous dictator we should support the cause of idealism for other populations, since it is from idealism that America claims the legitimacy for her democratic doctrine.

When this conversation gets reduced to ridicule from knee-jerk jingoism the discussion goes nowhere. But it does provide a perfect mirror of Washington's utter and complete failure to face the world as a global community, embrace the world as a family of man sharing a fragile environment. We push unsustainable economic policies and repressive regimes to the detriment of entire populations to preserve the most imperfect and heartless interpretation of America... a nation that wants it all at any cost.

Jingoism has a very hollow ring to me. It's usually masking a very un-American desire to look the other way while injustice and greed pave another highway for unbridled consumption and waste to drive us to oblivion.

But other than that I'm really a nice guy with a very positive outlook on life and hope for the future...

"Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

Some books I would highly recommend:
"When Corporations Rule the World" by David Korten
"Betrayal of Trust" by Laurie Garrett
"The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Pallast
"Body of Secrets" by James Bamford
"Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser

If you make it through those then try:
"Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines" by W.Y. Evans-Wentz

I guarantee you'll have a deeper appreciation for 'Shock n Awe" as a political disguise, and the manipulation of world events. Had a profound effect on me...

"When Corporations Rule the World" by David Korten


I think I read that... and Fast Food Nation...

Humans are funny creatures... we tell ourselves that we are very different from any animal on this planet, yet in allot of ways we act much like them, and made more dangerous by brain power we have... to bad that brain power usually ends up being used for basic animalistic needs.


So, America ends up being the one in the cross hairs while states like Iraq is considered OK. Mostly because you don't expect anything from Iraq. If they bombed a country and gased everyone, it would be sad; but if someone went in they are not well come.

In the end what happens? Iraq gets all this 'aid' from people who feel sorry for Saddam the underdog by terorist actions, human shields, and help Saddam regain power... and the people of Iraq end up with more unstabability cause of this help.

And no I don't think this will start WW3

Its going to be something else that does.

Anyway, lets see what happens during week 3.

oh and i think 'shock and awe' didn't work because they been in that type of shelling before and they already moved thier assetts to hospitals, schools, and mosques... you know. wonder why they are still communicating...

and those underground bunkers... I am sure they are still up... you know the ones under the school, mosques and hopitals.

/me goes look up "jingoism"...

Aha. Apt choice of words. Though, I think it's a rather human approach to things. As soon as people start thinking in terms of friend/enemy or good/evil the world suddenly shifts to black and white.

bakerstreet

"Just know, ye of little faith, that when Saddam Hussein buys US uniforms, puts tanks beside elementary schools, and sends women and children out in front of his troops as human shields, YOU are the ones he *knows* he can count on"

I suppose that was the only answer to give. You said a lot with that one.

Davidk
Whew...I am so glad you don't think we'd use gas.

I am sorry, but I have this terrible habit of being literal to a fault, almost with childlike innocence. I often get teased from my friends and family how they have to speak very plainly to me.

Hehe, even people in chat have learned to write J/K even before the write what they are kidding about, or to make for me, "this will be a hint of sarcasm" disclaimer.

And unfortunately, I am the lady who gets the joke, a few days after everyone else.

Oh well, I see now what point you were trying to make.

joetheblow, here's my answer to all the questions you put forth. I know, you won't be satisfied, I don't expect you to, because this war has divided people. There is no middle ground, and we are at loggerheads, at the opposite ends of the spectrum. But I am atleast willing to say that you might be right, but I think the my opinion wouldn't even be acknowledged. Anyways, I'll post what I will and I hope you will respect me for that.

>>"Give him 30 more days." That's fine with me, but what happens when those 30 days are up? We know it happened before.

Well, there was a good chance, with Saddam yielding to so many concessions (I have to call them concessions, because no sovereign nation in its right frame of mind would allow other nation's airforce, the rights to fly spy planes over its territory), we might have had CONCRETE EVIDENCE about the existence/non-existence of the WMD in Saddam's posession. I think the US of A would certainly have helped the UNSCOM inspectors with reliable intelligence bout their wherebouts (or am I hoping for too much?)


>>"America is only interested in oil".
Just oil? Not just from Iraq I hope because it is not worth it. We would spend more than the oil they have just fighting the war. I guess Iraq could become a launch pad for 'conquering' other oil rich places. The cost for doing so? More money than most of the oil in the region. Good investment? NO.

Its not about oil, atleast not for their own consumption. Let me put forward some facts. Oil (fossil fuels in fact, oil being the most prominent among them) is the lifeline in today's world. Whoever controls the oil supply, controls the world, literally. Let me see, US is supporting a tyranny in Saudi Arabia, it controls Kuwait, and after the war, will control Iraq too. I don't suppose, any of the abovementioned countries would sell their oil to US of A's enemies. So, can any nation afford standing up to the US of A? And the cost doesn't matter... Why, you ask? Would you put a price on your liberty? What if that liberty was equated with your 'the lone superpower in the world' status?
So YES. It is a good investment.


>>Why is the USA friends with China? They do the same thing as Iraq... Iraq has oil to fund its weapons production, China has a struggleing economy. The chinese soldier is more loyal. I doubt they would sell weapons to those who would later use them against themselves.

I don't think that China has a struggling economy. If China's economy (with around a 8% growth in GDP observed in the last decade or so) is struggling, then the US economy has FAILED (its stagnant, for all I know). The Chinese soldiers are indeed loyal. And out of their loyalty, they sell weapons in the black market (I hope most of you must have heard about the China - Pakistan - North Korea nexus, China aids Pakistan in making Nuclear Weapons, Pakistan sells them to the N. Koreans: N. Koreans supply Pakistan with missiles, quite a deal, I must say) and launder the money through the isle of Honk Kong back into mainland China.
As for the USA being a friend of China, well, look at the market size. A billion people...


>>Is Saddam in breach of the agreement???
Is Saddam the ONLY person in breach of an agreement, any agreement? What about N. Korea jumpstarting those mothballed reactors?


>>Does he have loads of money???
Sure. But so does Bill Gates. Wanna shoot him? And doesn't Bush own a plane (I read this on the same thread)?


>>How loyal is his army???
Its not his army, its Iraq's army. And they are loyal. They are as loyal to their nation (please note that I referred to their nation, not their leader) as the US army. And like any army, they wouldn't bear the thought of another country's uniformed men stepping on their soil.


>>Population comfort level???
Hardly different from some other Arab states like Turkey, Saudi, etc where opposition is swiftly dealt with... And did you know, that before the sanctions, Iraq was one of the most secular and liberal nations in the Gulf?


>>How many resolutions for disarmerment????
Atleast as many for non-proliferation.. I don't think that has worked either with many countries openly or covertly selling arms. Who helped Iraq arm itself in the first place, and who looked the other way when these arms were being used against Iran?

>>How many years under said resolutions???????
I don't know... you tell me. Its been almost 15 years since Tianmen... And twenty+ years since Tibet... (the Lama still resides at Dharamsala, a leader exiled from his own nation)

Nothing can be done now. The war has started, in fact is in its eighth day.

'The actions of the Present are judged by the Future'.

Many people on this board are from the US, are of the voting age and hence can and do affect the policies of the US (I believe that at the time of writing this piece, the US is a Democracy). You could have stopped this war from happening.

I couldn't stop it, because I had no say in this (I am just 21 and have seen no election and am no US citizen).

So you are the Present and I am the Future. And I will hold You responsible for the consequences of this war.

If it is proved, beyond doubt, that Iraq indeed posessed WMD's (I hope that an 'upright' nation like the US wouldn't resort to fabrication of proof, or is that too much to hope?), I will personally post an apology on this board. And I won't be ashamed to do so. I think that I can expect the same from you guys if it turns out that the war was wrong, though I doubt that an apology will pay for the destruction a nation will suffer. So, I hope from the bottom of my heart, that evidence of WMDs and Iraq's tete-a-tete with terrorist organisations is found.

bakerstreet
I love that Twain quote, he had a biting wit that man.

The deal about the gas masks and nerve agent antidote is this: According to a bio weapons expert, the nerve agent antidote was made *specifically* for weaponized VX nerve agent. This is something which Iraq is not supposed to have.

The NG antidote kit shown contained 'Atropine', a fairly common drug in general medical use and pretty much a 'catch-all' for military use ... any kit in almost any army would contain Atropine.
Beware media employed 'experts' ....