New ai behaviour in 1.12?

from Stardock Forums
I started my first 1.12 game - small maso. Poor start, only 1 PQ15 planet inside Sol system, 2 PQ14 nearby. Torians had 4 star systems, Drengins had 2, all of them with their usual PQ15+maso bonus planets. The other civs had only one star.
Everything goes well, I have no military as usual, trade a lot (3 of my 4 routes) with the Torians, and have 1 route with the Drengins. Everyone is between neutral and warm with me.

Suddenly, the Torians say something along the lines "We think it's better to finish you off before you attack us." I pay a lot for peace. Drengins declare war on next turn with the same text. A few turns later, Torians do it again.
I had no military, how could I have been considered a threat?
I'd understand the Drengins could attack if they gave me a text of 'Your military is so pitiful' but here, it looks like they thought me a threat. I had no ship, could build frigates at best when they ahd a lot of battleships, the Torians even having some dreadnoughts.

Why does a neutral to warm ai declare war on me? Why do they issue a text pretending they biew me as a threat when in fact I was in no position to attack anyone?
Is it just me misreading the message?

Note that I don't mind their attacking me (particularly the Drengins - the Torians didn't seem to have any reason to do so, being good and trading a lot with me). It forces me to change strategy for next game, but I think they should have said something like 'You've got no military so we will strike'.
[Message Edited]
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
I think that has to do with the difficulty-level you played on: Masochistic means that you would like to loose and that is just what happened.

However I once had the Arceans declare war on me with the message of the pityful lack of military... While my military indeed was smaller than theirs, it was not that pityful... But since that was not on Maso I could buy me some help and we shared the 3 planets the Arceans had before. :)

Maybe the messages are mixed up?
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I've noticed in the 1.12 games that the Torians are just rotten all the time. So far they've always hated me no matter what I've done and I keep having to bribe them with lots of tech to stay off my back. This has been with situations where my military is superior, where it's inferior, or lots of trade between us or not, both the same alignement, or me with the opposite alignment. I can't figure it out. They just like declaring war on me.

They almost wiped me out in my last game, and I wasn't sure I could pull a win, but I managed to sneak in and grab their planets which they still weren't defending with anything except colony ships. All of this on maso.

Maybe they added an 'evil' bug to the Torians. :-D (just kidding)

:notsure:
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Oh I meant to mention that everytime they declare war on me they give me that same message that you got, so it seemed to have little to do with my actual military might.
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
Odd. In four games I've played, the Torians haven't declared on me once, even when I was right next door and demonic zero. Relations went to Hostile, sure enough, and parked there for a long time, but they had routes to me (I had none to them!)

My early game relations in 1.12 are dropping further into the drink than I remember from earlier patches, but I have only failed to stave off war once, and that was by a power too far to do anything harmful to me before a truce was called (bringing relations back up to Cool, from which I salvaged them).

I can "feel" some difference in the AI, but it only feels different, not actually harder. Perhaps the changes don't affect the things I rely on to win.

Perhaps, also, this is what Brad meant by "AI counters common strategies more effectively". I don't appear to use "common" strategies much, nor does Ray, so we aren't seeing it, but some of you are. Or so it appears. I wonder what it is that you are doing that the AI has been changed to dislike? :)


- Sirian
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Oh I meant to mention that everytime they declare war on me they give me that same message that you got, so it seemed to have little to do with my actual military might.
End of quote

I wonder if there might be a bug which leads the Torians to always use that message instead of the correct one? This might explain things?

On my second game, the ai behaved mostly as usual, except maybe now in the late game the relations are dropping fast, but it's too late for them, I'm already stronger than them on the power graph. Mwahhahahah!! Looks like I'll get a military or cultural victory instead of an alliance this time.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Weird, I'm not having problems with relations in the late game. It's just the early game that I struggle with a little bit, but it's been tolerable.
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Maybe the fact that I grew from 2 sectors to a lot due to cutural conquest pissed them off? It would be nice if it was the case, but the ai still let me sulture-conquer them without moving a finger.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
[SPOILER WARNING]

Looked through the English.str for 1.12. Some new messages.

[NewConcern_1] We have significant debt. Taking on more is not an option.
[NewConcern_2] Their military power is just too strong. Forget it.
[NewConcern_3] Uh, no, we're not going to trade ships with you when you have so many transports full of troops near us.
End of quote


1 tackles the problem of AI buying themselves into bankruptcy. I sold Alexians some tech for 20 turns and when I try to sell them techs again in the same turn, this message appears. Normal sales can resume after the 20 turns if they still have cash by then.

2 deals with bribing AIs to attack each other. This message appeared when I tried to bribe the Alexians to attack the Dregs. However, increasing the bribe will still cause them to accept. I would prefer if the AIs are made to absolutely reject suicide missions.

3 deals with buying ships off AIs to use against them. I've tested it and it seems that it is only triggered if your transport is in the sector with the AI star-systems. You can still buy the ships if you are in an ajoining sector. I would prefer if the AIs only sell obsolete ships (ie only sell defenders if they already have Shields) and never sell transports, just like they never seem to want to sell colony ships.

~SDC~
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
[SPOLIER]

[SmartAI_Warning] Look human, perhaps you are mistaking my generalship for some sort of weak video game or something. But we are most definitely keeping a close eye on your military build up.
[SmartAI_Attack] I think we're better off dealing with you before you deal with us...
End of quote


It would seem that the second message deals with detecting military buildup. From what we read in the gameplay examples, AIs which fail their check will send out a warning to the human, ie SmarAI_Warning. In my test game, the transport which I parked in the ajoining sector triggered off the SmartAI_Attack.

LDiCesare, maybe your survey ship had buffs and triggered the attack?

~SDC~
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
My survey ship couldn'thave been near the Torians one month and the Drengins the next, and it may have had a mighty attack of 3 (small map - they had dreadnoughts) so, well... sounds strange.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
, the transport which I parked in the ajoining sector triggered off the SmartAI_Attack
End of quote


I've noticed this unfortunately the first time I was in a war after having being declared on and had transports orbit my planet for a turn before sending them off to the enemy. My "friends", who were away (2 sectors) from this took it as a reason to attack me.

I have tested a few times and it does seem to be a connection between ships in space and transports(mainly). However so far in my games the trigger seems to go off for incorrect reasons which is a bit of a let down.

As a result I've started using the save reload gambit. I've been doing this as it as it seems rediculous that my close friends go to war because I have troop carriers in my controlled sectors / are in the process off fighting enemies. However I think if I'm caught gearing for an attack and they declare I'll play as normal. I don't mind them attacking for the right reasons but when my ships can't even leave my stars in my sectors with out "friends" dropping in I get a little miffed.

Other then that I haven't found it to be a big issue just annoying should they for whatever reasons see it as a threat, I'm sure I'll work out what I'm doing wrong.

~SDC~
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Hmmm maybe in my case I was auto-piloting stuff that went through their sectors. I'll have to pay more attention to that next game. Though I still find it odd that it's *always* the Torians who hate me in my games! :) And for some reason, the Yor always love me. (And it doesn't seem to have had to do with alignments) The rest of the AI can swing either way. It could just be a wacky coincidence in the 4 or 5 1.12 games I've played though.
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
I'm glad its not just me the aliens are picking on. My strategy until now has been to make friends with the aliens, reasearch and build hard and rely on culture flipping. Now someone always seems to see that I have a weak military and decide that I'm ripe for extermination. They appear to be decidedly more aggressive.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I still play like that... LOL ...

Just takes me longer to make them friendly.. and even harder to keep them friendly..

Masso is not meant to be easy.. if you want easy then choose that level.. I like a challenge thats why I play masso.. and the score doesn't hurt either..

No pain no gain :)
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
Who mentioned maso? I'm still on normal/challenging! :)
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
I've noticed that the "good" AIs will pick on a "good" human player with a weak military, especially later in the game. This is a definite change from earlier versions.

I agree with Stydracos and Jordan that the AI also sees transport fleets as a threat in a paranoid fashion. The AI SHOULD be able to tell if ships are just autopiloting through their territory. Heck, the AI moves through mine all the time...and I can't send a message saying "We see your military buildup next to my undefended, juicy planet as a threat." If you have to steer around somebody who controls 1/3 of the galaxy, wars get really awkward.