Draginol Draginol

WMD stockpiles in Iraq were never the core issue

WMD stockpiles in Iraq were never the core issue

Support from Clinton

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp
I highly recommend reading this article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp

It is a very good article that discusses why the US went to war with Iraq in the first place.  It never ceases to amaze me that two things about the on-line world always remain true: 1) How little people know about the facts of history and 2) How willing they are to go on-line and demonstrate this.

The United States and UK went into Iraq because it believed, correctly so, that Iraq was a serious threat to the region and to the US/UK. The Kay report has been reported very selectively. What it actually says includes three  things but only one has been widely reported:

1) No weapons of mass destruction have yet been found and it is increasingly likely that none will be found.

and the part left out that should be mentioned:

2) Saddam thought he had weapons of mass destruction. His generals thought he had weapons of mass destruction. Due to internal corruption, money that was being spent to create weapons of mass destruction were diverted to other things.

3) The general strategy Saddam was going towards was to not create stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction but rather prepare the way to be able to produce them in quantity once the sanctions were lifted. That is, not have a smoking gun but get everything in place to flip a switch once the heat was off.

It is items 2 and 3 that should be remembered and yet are overlooked by the media (and amazingly there are still some people who claim there is no bias in the media).   The United States was attacked on 9/11. It was the most severe attack by a foreign entity against the United States since 1812.  The US is at war.  Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 directly. But that's totally irrelevant. In a post-9/11 world Saddam couldn't be allowed to stick around. The UN believed he still had weapons of mass destruction. The intelligence services from every major country thought he had WMD.  And why not? Iraq said that they had them too. When Iraq tossed out the inspectors in 1998, there were still tons of WMD unaccounted for.  Iraq refused to account for those weapons and hoped to play the stall game in the hopes that France and Russia would again take the position that sanctions should be lifted.  The people who were against the war are still against the war. The people in favor of military action are still glad we did it. Not finding WMD is completely irrelevant because a) it wasn't up to us to prove he had WMD. and b) His current possession of WMD was irrelevant.

But don't take my word for it. Here is something former President Clinton had to say this past year.

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."

Iraq repeatedly made false declarations about the weapons that it had left in its possession after the Gulf War. When UNSCOM would then uncover evidence that gave the lie to those declarations, Iraq would simply amend the reports. For example, Iraq revised its nuclear declarations four times within just 14 months, and it has submitted six different biological warfare declarations, each of which has been rejected by UNSCOM.

In 1995 Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son-in-law and the chief organizer of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, defected to Jordan. He revealed that Iraq was continuing to conceal weapons and missiles and the capacity to build many more. Then and only then did Iraq admit to developing numbers of weapons in significant quantities--and weapons stocks. Previously it had vehemently denied the very thing it just simply admitted once Saddam's son-in-law defected to Jordan and told the truth.

Now listen to this: What did it admit? It admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production. . . .

Next, throughout this entire process, Iraqi agents have undermined and undercut UNSCOM. They've harassed the inspectors, lied to them, disabled monitoring cameras, literally spirited evidence out of the back doors of suspect facilities as inspectors walked through the front door, and our people were there observing it and had the pictures to prove it. . . .

Over the past few months, as [the weapons inspectors] have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits, including, I might add, one palace in Baghdad more than 2,600 acres large. . . .

One of these presidential sites is about the size of Washington, D.C. . . .

It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons. . . .

Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.

And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal. . . . In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now--a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers, or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.

If we fail to respond today, Saddam, and all those who would follow in his footsteps, will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council, and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.

-Bill Clinton

31,413 views 79 replies
Reply #26 Top
absolutely Brad, and in a bit of bitterness, though not towards you, I refer everyone to my ongoing argument with a zealot from the right in Perdiction: Kerry wins big in New Hampshire.
Reply #27 Top

jeff allison  - one other point. When you respond to this article, you are responding to my blog. You should show a little respect on the blogs you respond to. Every blog is moderated by the author of that blog. I don't have to put up with personal abuse from you. I can delete your comments.  I won't but I could. I point this out because the same is true with any blog (including your own). The person who runs a given blog can remove comments.

I don't agree with Solitair or Wahkonta but you don't see them making rude and disrespectful responses.  I confess I should have probably jsut removed Jeff's offensive and disrespectful comments rather than make snide remarks about the left.

Reply #28 Top

Jeb - I agree, there zealots on both sides for sure. But speaking personally, I can deal with zealots as long as they don't start name calling me personally. Let me use Wahkonta as an example. I disagree with msot of what he writes but he doesn't go around my articles name calling me. Same for you and many others.

But on the other hand, statements like Jeff's:

Brad, I see you writhing like a fish on the beach, but you're not helping yourself any, nor anyone else for that matter.

That's so incredibly patronizing. And foolish too. If I were as infantile as he apparently thinks I am then that would make him a fool since every time *I* see a response there are several buttons by it. Why antagonize the site owner on his own blog on his own article? To what end?

T-man is working on a feature where users can black-list users from responding on their blogs by IP.  I wasn't planning to use such a feature but people like Jeff make it tempting. Each blogmaster should have control over who gets to respond to their blogs. 

Reply #29 Top
I think it's funny that the left is crying about how Bush 'lied,' and it seems to be their primary focus as we head into the next presidential election. Where were these people when mass graves weren't found in Bosnia? I don't remember the media screaming about lies then. The fact hasn't changed that Saddam is a MONSTER, okay, he had prisons for kids. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that's probably the most messed up thing I've ever heard of in my lifetime.
Reply #30 Top
"he had prisons for kids"

XR700.. did you know that 3 youths under the age of 18 were just realeased out of guantanimo bay... if i am not mistaken, that is an American institution??? and there are still at least 2 under the age of 18. Afghanistan was 2 years ago now... these would have been 10 - 15 year old kids.

That kind of thing is expected from ruthless dictators, but when i heard this about the US... that was one of the most messed up things i heard in my lifetime.

Everyone knows Saddam was a monster alright... that fact is well acknowledged... but is he the only threatening monster out there?

I wonder if Korea was sitting on 2/5 of the worlds oil reserves if the US would just ignore UN methods and invade Nth Korea? because i am pretty sure they have/want WMD, and i am pretty sure Kim is a ruthless dictator as well...

Its just a whole bunch of double standards if you ask me. If you are going to go around un-seating crazy despots, why not take them all?

BAM!!!
Reply #31 Top
Brad please check yourself on your response to 'Jeb'. LET THOSE WHO CENSOR COMMENTS BE KNOWN FOR WHAT THEY ARE! Nothing he said is out of line to me. Please don't act to 'CHILL' dissent. I don't say this to threaten, but advise it will not serve you well. It will not represent your wisdom and 'principles' of all this study of blogs and years of planning to use the 'C' tool. His words stand on their own and may hurt. I would feel it if one were to say I was a 'queen of propoganda' (really doesn't but for purposes of illustration here; credit GCJ, f you very much) and not ever respond but with a censor of comment.
If I am wrong let us go back and review the posts of 'Jeb' and see if he is in the same class as one we are all becoming familiar with, 'deleted'. (Don't worry 'Jeb' it will only increase your points) We all know of Voltaire, who spoke of defending to the death one's right to disagree. Let's but agree to disagree on this, and chill before making a rash decision. Matter of fact, let's put it to the test. 'Jeb' what else do you have to say? Let's put it out there and not feel at joeuser we have anything to fear in this area. C'mon folks. I'm missing more comments on my blogs that I, the author, am no longer allowed to view, much less respond to. Does it bother me? NO. I take it as validation of my point that a person would respond and not let me so much as see their response. Let freedom REIGN here, and let it ADD to our site, not corner and take away what we are building together with our differences. When I see I posted a blog and got 4 responses but can - as author - only view 3 of them, WHY would I feel or think it is me who is deficient in my opinion? It validates the anti to do so. Dissent fuels our site, so let it go it's own way and stand on its' own as our own blogs do.
With regard to the blog: As I said before Brad,"don't make us have to put up the literal quotations". The battle is obviously joined and you are not doing so well here. Must I? (I'm baiting and hoping someone will take it from here).
P.S. This is fun, isn't it? Can you do the twist Brad? Catch you on the next blog.
Reply #32 Top
Ummm, I'm confused. I think Brad and I respect each others viewpoints, I'm fairly certain none of my responses have been edited off the forums, and I don't have anything disrespectful to say to either Brad or Wahkonta. Brad and I disagree with each other on this article, or perhaps we do agree, but for different reasons.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that 11:46PM PT is too late to be reading your 100th essay on "Why The White Man Came to America", (By the way, that's not the title I gave to the essay question, but a very "imaginative" essay written a couple of dozen essays ago) and I'm not entirely sure what the point of wahkonta's post is, or what it has to do with me. Perhaps by the morning someone will have explained it in simpler words, or at least fewer sentences.

Cheers
Reply #33 Top
It’s pretty unfortunate that the Dems would politicize this matter; I guess that is nothing new, they did it in the Vietnam era when many of them tried to pin the blame for the failure squarely on Nixon, conveniently leaving out JFK and LBJ.


Oh and Anthony, allow me to say, everyday I fall down on my knees and thank God that Nixon got us out of Vietnam. In all seriousness, well, not everyday, but you get the point. Oh, yeah, and I'm a card caring Dem.

Cheers
Reply #34 Top
Brad to clarify my opinion.

a) War in Iraq was justified for many points other than WMD
b) US + UK did mislead their own people and the world as to extent of WMD (can't say if this was knowingly or not)
c) 1998 would have been a totally justified time to invade Iraq due to WMD, 2003 was not.

As for disagreements and dissent, please don't go black listing people. Most users of this site are mature enough to recognise or ignore trolling or personal comments. I have to admit that I saw no big issues with jeff's comments. They do not come across as a personal attack (to me), purely his way of expressing his feelings and disagreements. 'fish out of water' is a well known analogy.

It might help things if people were a bit more balanced in their posts and admitted what they agreed with before they disagreed with the rest. Most people seem to agree with the basic principle that Saddam had to go and should have been remnoved years ago. First Gulf war or 1998 being primary dates. In that regard Clinton's 1998 speach is fair and unlikely to be critised. What many disagree with is the strentgh of the WMD arguement put forward in 2003 and the suggestion now that it wasn't the core issue. In my opinion that may be true internally, but it was definitely the primary arguement internationally, and the UK definitely sued that as it's sole arguement. Thus your statement that

Not finding WMD is completely irrelevant because a) it wasn't up to us to prove he had WMD. and b) His current possession of WMD was irrelevant.

will indeed generate much disagreement.

Paul.
Reply #35 Top
Muggaz, Saddam has prisons for CHILDREN. I.e. children under 12. Children under 8. Do you understand yet?
Reply #36 Top
Of course, the US is the only first or second world nation that executes minors...
Reply #37 Top

Wahkonta Anathema - your empty assertions don't make for an argument.  I provided direct evidence that Clinton and others had the same views on Iraq as Bush did. I don't really care if some zealot doesn't find that convincing. I'm more interested in communicating and convincing normal people than trying to win over people on the fringe.

As for censoring, I'll remove whatever comments I choose to. It's as simple as that. If Jeff is going to make rude personal attacks on me I can remove him from my blog. He can write whatever he wants on his blog. But I have the right to decide who shows up on my blog.  If you don't like it, you can go somewhere else. You don't get a vote.  I am talking about Jeff Allison, not Jeb btw. Jeb, IMO, sets the standard for proper debating.

BTW, I don't delete comments made by people on other people's blogs (except for "Deleted's"). You're not missing any comments on your blog unless you deleted them.  I have seen a DB bug where it lists more responses than there are (i.e. where it says there are 5 responses but only 4 show up) but it has nothing to do with deletion, I'm not sure what causes that, I don't code the site, just Admin it. Deleting comments btw, wouldn't cause such an issue.

Also Wahkonta Anathema . don't kid yourself, ultimately the site owners decide who gets to post and have blogs and who does not. Trying to antagonize the site owners is foolish.

If you can't participate in a discussion in a mature fashion and stay on topic then you should stick to your own blog and post about whatever you want to post about there.

 

Reply #38 Top

Solitair - I agree with your points A, and B. Disagree with points C. I think anytime after 1998 war was justified.

As for dissent - each blog poster should have the personal freedom to decide who gets to post on their blog -- if anyone at all. That was my point.  My second point was that people like Jeff Allison need to show a little more respect. It's not about balance, it's about being insulting and offensive. Each person has their own threshold on such things. And the person writing the article is the one who should get to decide.  The point is to encourage people to write blogs. Comments are optional.

I am, however, growing weary of people making baseless accusations that I somehow censor people. The only person whose comments have been removed on this site (or edited) is "_Deleted"'s.  I want to make this very clear: If someone thinks JoeUser is some sort of monstrous place that quashes freedom of expression then they should vote with their feet and leave.

Reply #39 Top

Of course, the US is the only first or second world nation that executes minors...

You're kidding right? Most middle eastern countries execute minors.  Most African nations execute minors.  Many Asian countries execute minors.  There's a lot more to the world besides Western Europe.

Reply #40 Top

Speaking of executing minors, since you made the claim, how many minors were executed in the United States last year?

Reply #41 Top
true, true, but how many African, Asian, or middle Eastern nations are First or Second World Nations?
Oh, and I believe the US executed one last year, but I don't have the figures in front of me, I'll try and figure it out when I'm finished grading.
Cheers
Reply #42 Top
Oh, and after a quick search: 3 juveniles were executed in January of 2000, As of October of that very same year, 74 juveniles were on death row.

Link

Reply #43 Top

Jeb - I'm not arguing that - you are the one who said the US is second or whatever in the world. My response is Western Europe isn't the world. China, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India, Pakistan, etc. are not third world countries unless you define third world as non-Western Europe.

The issue was referring to children's prisons. Not juvenilles in prison, children. As in little kids. Little kids who had done nothing except have parents who had the misfortune of ticking off Saddam in some way.  To try to compare the two is frivelous in my opinion.

Reply #44 Top
Brad,

I would argue that being a child in a childs prison is better than being a child in an adult prison, or whatever you want to call that sad excuse of a human rights violation Guantanimo bay.

but thats just me.

BAM!!!
Reply #45 Top
Jeb - I'm not arguing that - you are the one who said the US is second or whatever in the world.


I believe there was a question of misunderstanding, I was meaning as in First, Second, or Third World Countries, and not as in First in the World.

Cheers
Reply #46 Top
Why were these children executed? If their only mistakes were political, then I guess one can compare executing children to the child prisons that were found in Iraq. However, if they were executed for committing crimes that would land an adult a death sentence, then please don't be compare that to children being incarcerated for pissing off a dictator. If you insist though, then why not demand the freedom of all prisoners, since we're not going to be differentiating between political prisoners and people who have actually caused serious harm to others.

Also, I found an article that dates back to April in which "precursors to a banned toxic agent" were found. Of course, it was probably only there for educational purposes. Also, illegal weapons have been found in Iraq, and although they were not WMDs, I don't think that they provide a valid case that Hussein fully cooperated. After all, it's a typical tactic, as I saw in a court case where this crack dealer plead guilty to the misdemeanors (which might have made her seem honest if you ignored the fact that she was also being tried on a few felonies). Maybe those jurors were all wrong in believing the evidence that clearly proved her guilt over her own words.
Reply #47 Top

I would argue that being a child in a childs prison is better than being a child in an adult prison, or whatever you want to call that sad excuse of a human rights violation Guantanimo bay.

Do you understand that there is a difference between a 16  year old in prison becaue they murdered someoe versus a 7 year old whose parents simply said something critical of their government?

Reply #48 Top
Jeb - Ah I gotcha. I failed my reading comprenension roll.
Reply #49 Top
I understand perfectly Brad... that isn't the issue.

The issue is that kids are in Prison... no matter what for... Kids shouldn't be in Prison. Whether it be some lunatic from Tikrit, or some Lunatic from Texas.

BAM!!!

Reply #50 Top
Muggaz, what's with the "BAM!!"? Are you Emerill Lagassi now?