Anyway, so then to the question of fate, if everything has already happened then can we change anything? I say yes!

i agree becouse i don't believe in distany

Also, if people have destinies, then what is free will for?

If i was going to believe in destiny then my next step would be to ask which way to the labotomy clinic!

true

and i just remembered that in one of the 4 gospels i think anyways

it says that only god knows when christ shall return, not even the angels or the son knows

so if god is the son also then how could the son not know when he would return

it says that only god knows when christ shall return, not even the angels or the son knows so if god is the son also then how could the son not know when he would return

Jesus was obviously not all-knowing, unlike His Father.
But I doubt that He still lacks that information at this point in time, since He is with the Father in heaven now, and is actively preparing for His return.

Many times Jesus demonstrated that He had to have faith in what He was doing. And faith can equate directly to ignorance.

Mystikmind's comment:
Anyway, so then to the question of fate, if everything has already happened then can we change anything? I say yes!

If it has already happened, how can it be changed?

If you can change something, then the change would have to be reflected in the already completed - as something that had already been changed.

I think it is too hard to grasp with any real certainty or clarity - that the Creation can at once be a work still in progress within itself yet an already completed work outside of itself.

then why doesn't your brain hurt

Actually the brain has no nerve receptors to sense 'pain' so... it is physically impossible for the brain to feel anything. This is how they can perform brain surgery on a patient only sedated with a local. They keep the patient awake so that he/she can respond to the surgeon's signals/requests. The only risk of pain comes from actually sawing the skull cap off. Anyone remember 'Hannibal'? When he was 'serving' Ray Liotta's character with his own brain matter...
Regardless, spiritual or physical, the brain as an 'organ' cannot feel pain.
BTW, I am quite surprised to see all of the religious aspects of this thread. It is always stimulating to let the mind ponder all of these immense possibilities... but it is sad that we never really seem to 'get anywhere' with regards to the topic. I guess that's why they say that your faith is your belief and all you need to do is believe, whether there is conclusive evidence or not, your belief should be all you need to know that God AND Jesus do in fact exist.
Remember, those of you who do believe, that Satan is known as the Great Deceiver... in this day and age, where Satan is trivialized and God's law is shattered daily, is it so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe, Satan is running amok and doing his job well, leaving us in a state of ignorance simply because we 'need to see it' to believe it... and here it is right under our noses. Just look and you shall see.

the pain i am talking about is different than physical pain and you know that

the greatest trick that satan ever did was make himself nonexistant

and now he is trying to do the samething with god

the pain i am talking about is different than physical pain and you know that

Yes, I do understand that you are talking about 'heartache', 'heartbreak', or whatever else you would call it. But The Great Emperor stated it best when he attempted to explain that the endorphines the body releases to chemically balance our system are the trigger/cause of the said 'pain'. It is purely chemical and our heart has nothing whatsoever to do with feeling anything. There is no soul residing in our heart, at least not as it's singular 'home'. Your soul would be present in your entire physical being, not just one or two specific areas/organs.
The soul is trapped by our physical state. It can experience things that probably aren't possible by being trapped like this. I believe in some small way that this is our 'test'. If we can learn to overcome our physical pleasures it will show us the way to an enlightened path where minor trivialities, like American Idol, video games, SEX (which I am sure is a favorite of many of us in here, I know it's mine!)... you get the point. These are all things that could in essence 'tarnish' our souls and keep us in Satan's grip.

Actually, the soul is the combined body and spirit - according to the Bible.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It is the living matter - or the substantive spirit - however would best describe it.

overcome our physical pleasures

Why do they need to be "overcome?" Can't we all just get along? Pleasure and pain are two words we use to describe our bodies' responses to stimuli. Evolution shaped our response systems to help us thrive. Surely what you're talking about is moderation and not elimination of pleasure.

Mind you, I'm only bring up moderation by way of being civil. IMO, if you don't harm others, "excess" is as reasonable a goal as any for a free being.

Why do they need to be "overcome?"

I might have been a little vague with this so let me try to clarify. I will use the topic of sex since it is so near and dear to all of us, not to mention necessary for the continuation of the species!
Sex at it's most base form is solely to procreate. We were told to go forth and multiply, or something along those lines. Now I don't think that science has actually studied the animal kingdom with regards to sex and if the animals derive pleasure from the act... but one could only assume that they do, since we do, right? But sex in the animal kingdom is pretty much all for reproduction. I don't think that there are many animals who just randomly go around having sex for no greater purpose than to have it.
Now let's look at us. Sex has become an addiction to some, so much so that they actually resort to rape and molestation to feed their addiction. I cannot believe that most rapists are only raping their victim to feel power over them. Sure, somewhere deep within the psyche, maybe, but I don't buy it. If the sensation wasn't there, there would be no reason to rape to begin with, but this particular example can probably get really bogged down, so I will move on.
My point is simply that in this scenario, sex should be nothing more than an act to have a child. No child, no sex. I think that it was put into our belief system ages ago that sex between partners was a way to convey love and connectivity... I personally cannot see how since I can love someone without ever 'mounting' them, i.e. my mother/father.
Have to pause for work, HA, brb to continue...

Okay, I'm back. I guess to sum it up, if we could shed our 'pleasures of the flesh', whether they be good or bad, I think it would do a lot to bring us out of our 'haze' when it comes to enlightenment. To me, the spirit will always have to contend with physical pleasures, and that my friends would be the ultimate deception of them all now wouldn't it?

actually i think that is why god has allowed in the past for men to marry more than one wife

becouse the sex drive in men is usually a lot stronger than in women

that being said if you follow the rules in the bible ie get married and only have sex with that person then you probable can't go to far

and for the so called 7 deadly sins

non of them are deadly unless you do go to far with them

All these concepts of pleasure and pain makes me remember a good book i read over the summer. A Brave New World, anyone know it?

I agree with G.W. if we do no harm then why stop what we are doing. I mean i would rather have a good life now, than worry about what will happen after I am dead. Thats why i dont really like to try and chase after the 'answer', cause even if i had the smallest chance of finding out the truth i wouldnt take it. I like the mystery, i like the uncertainty, and i like the fact that i am not judged by what i do. I mean all these 'sins' were defined or writen by people, those people thought they were immorally wrong things to do. Or, better yet, those people could have easily been trying to prove their own purety.

As for sex, we are not the only species on this planet that do it for pleasure. Dolphins also share in our ectasy, however since they dont have contraception, its just like normal reproduction to them. However, we do not even know if animals feel emotions. Every single respected behavioralists, or any psychologist for that matter will say they dont. Behavioralists try to prove that even we dont have emotions, that instead the things we feel are just results of our envioremental exposure.

from watching nature shows

i can tell that elephants have emotions and as veriad as ours

Silly, animals dont have emotions. Animals have instinct.

Thats their arguement.

then explain mother elephants putting their own lives in jeppoerdy to comfort a dieing baby

or a mother elephant that is willing to break a tusk trying to left a dead baby off the ground and on its feet

or elephants carrying away bones of dead elephants

or a whole herd of elephants saying goodbye to a dead elephant. one at a time they will walk up to the dead and stand for minute and then leave

all of that sounds like compansion, love, devotion non of those are instincts

Now I don't think that science has actually studied the animal kingdom with regards to sex and if the animals derive pleasure from the act

Silly Evil, the subject's so old for "science" that the new queer cable channel is running a documentary about "homosexuality" among animal, not to mention that the LOGO show is mostly old news for many of us amateurs who try to follow animal behavior research.

Bonobo chimps would be in charge of all our sex clubs if they had language and money skills. Also, the plural marriage crowd (the "roots" Mormons and Muslims et al), not to mention the lads who're worried about being cuckolded, might be able to learn something from birds. I believe their folk have been dealing with the core reproductive issues longer than our folks have.

plural marriage is outlined in the old testiment a long time before mormans or muslims showed up


also i eye witnessed a mallard male rape a mallard female

she and her mate tried to get rid of the other male

@ the elephant refrance: That is again instinct. Unlike us humans most animals have a smaller frontal lobe, that means that they are scientifically incapable of having complex thoughts or emotions. The fact that it is trying to save its baby is very instictual actually, its trying to make sure its race suceeds. Now i shouldnt say trying, cause actual it cant really resist its insticts. Neither can we, but thanks to our frontaol lobe, and the Medula Oblengata(sp?) we are able to factor in reason and find a more constructive way to channel instinct.

@the other refrence: Thats just defense of property, the two of them were probably competing over that particular female. Animals would not relise the differance between conventional and forced sexual interactions.

Just to set the matter straight, i believe that animals do develope a personality if in human care. Otherwise they will remain instinctual without conditioning.

and the elephants that built a ramp to save a baby whle the herd was building the ramp three of them held the babies head above water

and then you have killers and dolphins that rescue drowning humans

Dolphins are diffrent, plus these arent emotions, thats just common intelligence, i never said they didnt have that

plural marriage is outlined in the old testiment a long time before mormans or muslims showed up

Hence my use of "roots." Several years ago, before the phrase 'gay marriage' was common in newspapers, I and some friends made sloppy jokes about queer folks and traditional ("sons of Abraham" et al) polygamists being strange bedfellows. Later on, folks like former US Senator Rick Santorum started making similar claims in public, apparently not as jokes.

Recently, I finished watching the first season of the HBO show Big Love on DVD. I have no "church people" in my daily life, and I'm pretty sure I'll be OK keeping things that way. But that "polygamist" show uses prayer scenes almost like other shows use sex or violence. As a queer man and semi-professional student of politics, I must say I'm starting to hope "my people" have some hope of civil relations with the "church people."

sorry i misread the roots thing i thought you were saying that mormans and muslims were the roots

i thought you were saying that mormans and muslims were the roots

I should confess that I was being snarky about all the Big Book religions.

I have serious problems with the notion of revealed truth, especially when it's mixed up with literature that was built by committees over centuries--*many* centuries, if you think of the Torah, Bible, and Quran as a three-volume series, which I do.