well maybe they were immortal but a conditional immortality where as the tree of life would have given them immortality without conditions

I thought about this post, it would make sense that adam and eve were imortal so long as they were without sin, that being the 'condition'. Therefore eating the fruit of the tree of life would have allowed imortality to continue after sin.

From this i have to wonder that death is a consequence of sin not a punishment. Kind of like jumping off a cliff - dying from jumping off a cliff is not a punishment but simply a natural result, cause and effect kind of thing.

I say this because if the tree of life could make man immortal after sin, then you would have to believe that the tree of life could prevent Gods punishment. Since i do not think anything could prevent Gods punishment aside from Jesus, it makes sense that death is not a punishment or the tree of life was a missprint, take your pick.

Death is simply an effect of sin, somthing that could have been avoided just as if you jumped off a cliff but had a parachute! IE - tree of life = parachute!

the punishment was being cut off from god oh and the thorns and childbirth the pain there of

but if it wasn't for the pain of childbirth mothers would not love their children as much so maybe it really wasn't a punishment

all those animal sacrifices that the jews did was to prep them for the sacifice of christ

another condition of adam and eves immortality would be that they would remain innocent ie no sex (no desire for it or knowing about it)

thinking about it further if they had eaten of the tree of life instead of the tree of evil they would have remained the way they were for ever

no children and free to eat of the garden any way they want to

at least that is what i am beginning to think

I admit I was fishing for digressions when I started this thread, but I hadn't at all expected a sustained debate about the Garden of Eden stories. If I was a better scholar, I'd have something sharp to say about how dull natural law arguments are for me, but I can only mutter about liking physics and politics more than theology. Grounding worldly power (i.e. churches & religious states) in myths has always led to nasty problems, IMO. I also fear my last post about being "combative" was some denial about my feisty responses to a number of recently posted points.

but if it wasn't for the pain of childbirth mothers would not love their children as much

This ticks me seriously b/c it sounds masochistic and ignores the love of fathers and adoptive parents, which I know can be stronger than a birth mother's love.

innocent ie no sex (no desire for it or knowing about it)

This ticks me off even more b/c I'm convinced that sex is "innocent" (rape is not sex, it is violence). Thankfully, not all monotheists are anti-sex, but too many still are, and the social effects of those millenia-old attitudes are still causing unwanted children, prostate cancers, suicides, etc.

maybe it was just simple that they couldn't have children until the eat of that fruit

and men can love the children more than mothers but i think that only happens on the occasions that mom dies or hates or doesn't love her children and that does happen one of those choice things except the death thing

of course i could be wrong about most of what i am saying


one other facter for father love is the cute facter

G.W. Swicord makes good points worth considering.

Our understanding of sex would seem to indicate that perfect beings would not do it, that is reasonable because you cannot have sex without lust and you cannot have perfect beings that lust, or can you?? Anyway, this is all based on our understanding of sex, however i'm sure God's perfect concept of sex would be somthing different, somthing that adam and eve would have had before the fall.

of course i could be wrong about most of what i am saying

True for all of us who dare to put forward unique concepts, keep up the good work!

one thing in the bible new or old testiments

you cannot find any place where god says that he is perfect

christ says god is perfect

and the prophets do

but god does not say it

you cannot find any place where god says that he is perfect

You won't find any place in the bible that says people have adrenal glands either. Does that mean adrenal glands arn't real?? I don't see where your going with your point?

my point is that a perfect being would not consider him/herself to be perfect

he/she would try to find some way to improve themselves

You have some funny logic, danielost.

Jesus claimed that He and the Father are one.
That, if you have seen Him you have seen the Father.

Jesus raised Himself from death, just to prove the point of who and what He really is.

Seems to me, if Jesus said that God is perfect, there is no reason to doubt that God is perfect.

then who abanden him when he was on the cross

and

who was he asking to take the cup from him in the olive grove

and when he said my father's house who was he talking about


one more thing

you and your wife(those of you who are married) when you speak do you not usually speak as one

and i believe christ also said that he and the father were as one

god is not human

christ is

and i did not say that god was not perfect

I SAID THAT A PERFECT BEING WOULD NOT CONSIDER HIMSELF TO BE PERFECT

my point is that a perfect being would not consider him/herself to be perfect he/she would try to find some way to improve themselves

But you carn't put forward such a concept without more information on your reasoning? I mean, give me somthing to work with here?

A perfect being would know perfectly well that they were perfect, and to consider Himself to be imperfect would be a form of false humility (itself an imperfection), and it would be lying to Himself as to His own perfection (another imperfection - lying).

So a perfect being would have to consider Himself to be perfect.



John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


He did not say 'as one'.

Christians, for the most part, consider Jesus to be God. So in that respect, God is human because Jesus is fully human as well as being fully God.

A perfect being would know perfectly well that they were perfect, and to consider Himself to be imperfect would be a form of false humility (itself an imperfection), and it would be lying to Himself as to His own perfection (another imperfection - lying).

I would agree with this but i am still intrigued by danielost's concept. I would love to know what reasoning gave him the idea?

if jesus is god then who abandend him when he was on the cross he couldn't have abandend himself

there is one way to improve yourself if you are perfect and that would be through your children and since we are all gods children and he wants us to be perfect as he is

God is Father, Holy Spirit, and Son.
Jesus is the Son part of that Trinity.

And we are not all children of God in the same way that Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

All this talk of God being perfect, of people saying it is. I mean do we even know if this creator has feelings, emotions, wants, need, pereceptions, conceptions, anything at all? I think that whatever created had to have somekind of emotional motivation, and it also had to feel attachment to us, and the planet to keep making sure he was respected as the guiding being. I mean that would automatically mean he wasnt perfect, we dont know how much knowledge the Creator has, meaning that most of its decisions are guided by emotion alone. We can see that most of the time it is kind and generous to us humans. But, we can never know who it is that is truely speaking God, or the Church. I mean if God loves us all why do we have wars, conflicts, starvation, manipulation, suffering? Why doesnt he stop all of the carnage that his preachers cause, all the conflict that they inspire. Sure some of them want peace, but a lot want peace under their religion. That is quete a disturbing idea, isnt it?

Now as for mothers having more or less love for an infant, that is objective. We can not measure love, and love is not considered to be a character trait by any psychologist. It is an emotion, and emotions are hard to classify. Many times even kindness is only the cause of reaction formation and the morals of todays society. Many parents only care about their children because that is what is socially accepted, or they feel guilty from blaming the child for things that happened in relation to birth.

Lastly, there are over a billion diffrent species on this planet, at least that. I dont expect that from the small number carried on the Ark that many evolved in the corse of a few hundred thousand years. Its an impossibility, plus how did they than have time to spread themselves so perfectly around the world map? What explanations would then exist for places like the Galapocos(sp?) or Australia?

As for whether or not Adam and Eve were immortal, i would have no clue on what to contribute here. There is just not enough in my theological teachings to provide and answer or debate here.

of course we are not

we were created by god but christ was conceaved of god

and to make things even more confussing christ is the god of the old testiment

but he is not the god of heaven read revelations

god and the lamb of god are seen in the same place at the same time

the lamb of god is christ

if jesus is god then who abandend him when he was on the cross he couldn't have abandend himself there is one way to improve yourself if you are perfect and that would be through your children and since we are all gods children and he wants us to be perfect as he is

Ah ic ic, yes your concept has merrit in a certain sense. What we can say about God as a perfect being is that he 'seeks'. I mean your touching on the whole meaning of life here.... God created us and gave us a free will so that we could freely choose to love him, this is what God seeks, this is the meaning of life!

As for Jesus on the cross, may i put forward a new concept... Jesus at that moment was not God because he was 'us'.

As for Christ rising from the dead, i dont think it happened. I think that his corpse was moved by his followers to a safer place and from that a more exagerated tale evolved by word of mouth. We have little known writing about these events, and details are schetchy.

what i think is that as adam and eve had before they ate of the fruit so did christ

ie daily contact with god with two exceptions the 40 days and 40 nights and the cross

thus the last temptation of christ was when he was on the cross

greatemperor you forget about the three armed roman solders

and the taboo of the jews against touching a dead body and all of the other so called savors who were said to rise from the dead

Who Christ is, his presence on Earth, his sacrifice and resurrection are all suposed to be impossible.

Consider the darkest, most decrepid centre of a large city, imagine a buitiful flower growing from between the cracks in the endless concrete. Imagine a starving child in Africa, struggling to survive in the desert, imagine that child speaking words of great wisdom. Imagine a world full of sinners all doomed, imagine God choosing to sacrifice himself to save them. These things which should be impossible that happen and are of such great beauty as to bring tears to ones eyes.

What is it about the impossible happening that can be so beautiful?

Understand that and you will understand God, what he seeks. 'the stone that the builders rejected'.

i have to agree with the spirit of this

I do believe in his existance, and in his influence. But, rather than seeing him as prophet for some God, i see him as a leader of yet another struggling people. He was indeed wise, but in my opinion carried no supernatural strenght. Instead hes used his own strengths as a human being to unite people in what he believed was real.

Either that or he was a schizophranic(sp?) as many of the messangers of God in our modern world are.

i guess then the question is who is and who isn't schizphranic then

and those who are schizphranic which ones may actually have contact with god

or should i say who god has contact with