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Vasari is underpowered!?

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Vasari is underpowered!?

from Sins Forums
Ive had a few games now and gotten to some "conclusion" that the vasari is weak compared to the TEC.

Since conclusion is in "" is because i and a few others might be using them wrong

To get to the point, i was thinking they would be upper ships and very few of them, but the TEC would counter this as the have more cash to build more, so it still would be a 50/50 change to win.

We had some disscussion about it on IRC (im using SDC so i dont have the log) where some say they aint ment for brute force. Or that they have upper skills, then i have to wonder why im losing almost every battle encounter with the TEC, as the TEC has a few more ships and the Vasari got a 1 more armor, it doesnt add up. This is both early and late game it seems to be the same.

All this doesnt make any sense to me, as the TEC have been in peace for 10.000 years, the Vasari should obviously be way stronger.

Also on IRC it was said the Vasari got Phase Gate to get your ships fast and inbehind enemy lines they are better. Well as it is now the Phase Gate tech is at civic lvl 9 and before you even get there its very very late game.

Just to let anyone know i love sins, just dont see where the Vasari is as powerful as the Lore and dev's says
152,794 views 167 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
Overpriced, but tougher ships are the norm for vasari already, why are you guys arguing over nothing?
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
Economically, the Vasari are underpowered in the early game and that's the only real trouble; in the middle to late game they more than make up for it. The units, their types and generic class use, are all very similar (nearly identical) to the TEC, yes. But later on as you research technology and unlock more abilities the less they are used the same way; in fact the differences become pronounced in huge ways.

Almost half the Vasari Cap-ships have side beam weapons. Sounds blah, in a way, but they can target two to four ships at a time with these! Add the frontal barrage they give, the special and disruptive abilities, and you have some pain coming right at you. Thus you can bomb a planet with two of their primary capships and still hit nearby units and buildings as you do so.

Vasari could be improved a bit in the early economy, and in the class types of the units (no need to mimic human ship types [carrier, frigate, battleship, etc] so closely).
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

Overpriced, but tougher ships are the norm for vasari already, why are you guys arguing over nothing?
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because its not all that noticeable. in general I'd say vasari ships are rougly 15% stronger than their TEC counterparts. some of the people here are talking about 100% i.e. twice as powerful.

however much it is, it should be noticeable in production and combat.
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top


Overpriced, but tougher ships are the norm for vasari already, why are you guys arguing over nothing?


because its not all that noticeable. in general I'd say vasari ships are rougly 15% stronger than their TEC counterparts. some of the people here are talking about 100% i.e. twice as powerful.

however much it is, it should be noticeable in production and combat.
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I'll have a supprise for you guys on Tuesday <3
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
general I'd say vasari ships are rougly 15% stronger than their TEC counterparts. some of the people here are talking about 100% i.e. twice as powerful.
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what you seem to be missing is that the Vasari are not supposed to be significantly more powerful, just significantly more expensive, which they already are.

the reason they are expensive is to bring them down at least partway to the TEC level.
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
Well luckily this is a beta and not a finished product, so we can still expect some change for the better
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
like energy swords and dark templars?
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
dark templars

<3
Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
Actually they are saving those for the Advent...
Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top
arbiters then.
Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top
alright, enough of it, could we please stay on topic? the fact is that there is no uber defining trait that makes the vasari feel unique. they require a different play style, granted and good. but that just isnt enough. it has to scream differentiation with every aspect.

f.e. giving a race no shields at all would be highly differentiating. thus, anti shield weapons would be useless and they have to find another way to deal with focused fire.

also, I liked the idea of multi (?) that they dont actually colonise, but use these big colony ships and station them around a planet where they can take the resources and where they can multiply, but not on the planet itself.

and come on. bombing then resettling is stupid enough for tec only, but for aliens? first bomb everything down, then resettle it, with humans even? plain stupid. and those bombardement weapons are wmd and they dont just kill the ruling class or the command infrastructure, the destroy everything on the planet and thats the simple truth. or are they using neutron bombs or some nanotech that just kills certain ppl. barely.
Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
also, I liked the idea of multi (?)
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the idea was Gauntlet(03)'s
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
and come on. bombing then resettling is stupid enough for tec only, but for aliens? first bomb everything down, then resettle it, with humans even? plain stupid. and those bombardement weapons are wmd and they dont just kill the ruling class or the command infrastructure, the destroy everything on the planet and thats the simple truth. or are they using neutron bombs or some nanotech that just kills certain ppl. barely.
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Vasari always need slaves...
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top

and come on. bombing then resettling is stupid enough for tec only, but for aliens? first bomb everything down, then resettle it, with humans even? plain stupid. and those bombardement weapons are wmd and they dont just kill the ruling class or the command infrastructure, the destroy everything on the planet and thats the simple truth. or are they using neutron bombs or some nanotech that just kills certain ppl. barely.


Vasari always need slaves...

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then why kill them with uber weapons only to settle them again? I would prefer if there were a certain percentage chance of surrender, so that not all of the infrastructure and population has to be eliminated. reduce bombardment dmg to balance it, but it would just feel more sensible.

also, I liked the idea of multi (?)

the idea was Gauntlet(03)'s
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oh well, I wasnt sure anyway.
Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top
but that just isnt enough. it has to scream differentiation with every aspect.
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name one game that does that bar earth at war.
then why kill them with uber weapons only to settle them again? I would prefer if there were a certain percentage chance of surrender, so that not all of the infrastructure and population has to be eliminated. reduce bombardment dmg to balance it, but it would just feel more sensible.
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too complicated, even I wouldnt want to deal with it.
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top

but that just isnt enough. it has to scream differentiation with every aspect.

name one game that does that bar earth at war.
then why kill them with uber weapons only to settle them again? I would prefer if there were a certain percentage chance of surrender, so that not all of the infrastructure and population has to be eliminated. reduce bombardment dmg to balance it, but it would just feel more sensible.

too complicated, even I wouldnt want to deal with it.
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games? how about the classic we have been throwing around the whole time: starcraft.

differences in how buildings were constructed (warp in, morph, continually construct)
in overall units characteristics: self healing units and buildings, shields.
significant differences on strengh of units and spam vs high value units
difference in base layout (add ons, upgrading buildings, energy area desing and possible shutdown due to energy lack., build restricted to creep)
differences in cloaking styles.
wide differences in siege styles.

a lot of those items can be found - surprise suprise - in wc3. I figure there are other games where you can find similar things, but I suspect you already get my point. now tell me that thoes are not hell of a lot differences that are just apparent from the very start.

@ colony stuff: well suggest something better, it was only a rough thought after all. but keep in mind that it is perfectly credibly that world offers a surrender when they are bombed with nukes. better slaves than dead, eh? so why even bother killing them all, when its just not necessary?
Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top
games? how about the classic we have been throwing around the whole time: starcraft.
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everything you list here is extremely shallow, building build visuals? why not play supcom (one of the less differentiated games out there) "unit characteristics" as in whether or not they heal, pff thats a small difference, the Vasari rely much more on shields than the TEC and theirs regen much faster, while the same holds vice versa for plating. I prefer that system because it has depth. "significant differences on strength of units and spam vs. HVUs" I hate that system, the strong expensive versus the weak spammers, I thank GOD the devs didnt use that recycled diaper to shit on. "differences in build layout" doesnt EXACTLY apply "differences in cloaking style" like WHAT? and wide differences in sieges? there ARENT any sieges in starcraft

admitedly its an older game, but the games that mimic it even slightly (C&C, earth 21whatever0) are flat and rather tasteless

the devs have made a MIRACLE of differentiation here on a series of, as blair put it "similar micromanagement structures" which make it easy to understand initially. if your point is something other than "the Vasari and TEC arent differentiated enough" then your not doing a great job of getting it across, if you're point is that, I simply dont know what to do with you.

the races initially begin similar, but even from the first few capitals and the first few techs you can tell that they begin to bridge apart immediately (or at least I can) by tech 5/7 the two are so drastically different that you really cannot survive there unless you think like a vasari, or a TEC.
Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
The thing Schod is forgetting to mention is that while he's 90% right, the 10% is the fact that the Vasari are a little under-powered in the early game. Fix that, and maybe weaken them in the late game, and things work out better.
Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top

games? how about the classic we have been throwing around the whole time: starcraft.

everything you list here is extremely shallow, building build visuals? why not play supcom (one of the less differentiated games out there) "unit characteristics" as in whether or not they heal, pff thats a small difference, the Vasari rely much more on shields than the TEC and theirs regen much faster, while the same holds vice versa for plating. I prefer that system because it has depth. "significant differences on strength of units and spam vs. HVUs" I hate that system, the strong expensive versus the weak spammers, I thank GOD the devs didnt use that recycled diaper to shit on. "differences in build layout" doesnt EXACTLY apply "differences in cloaking style" like WHAT? and wide differences in sieges? there ARENT any sieges in starcraft

admitedly its an older game, but the games that mimic it even slightly (C&C, earth 21whatever0) are flat and rather tasteless

the devs have made a MIRACLE of differentiation here on a series of, as blair put it "similar micromanagement structures" which make it easy to understand initially. if your point is something other than "the Vasari and TEC arent differentiated enough" then your not doing a great job of getting it across, if you're point is that, I simply dont know what to do with you.

the races initially begin similar, but even from the first few capitals and the first few techs you can tell that they begin to bridge apart immediately (or at least I can) by tech 5/7 the two are so drastically different that you really cannot survive there unless you think like a vasari, or a TEC.
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well just wait a second. protoss shields are far from a minor characteristic. every decent player would have many shield batteries and withdraw injured forces immediately to them. also great on the offense. siege tank ring a bell?

anyways, if you want I can elaborate on all those details. my point is not that is the only way to differentiate in sins, but that its an additionaly way. more differentation is better than less, isn't it? and even if some of them are shallow, so what? I said earlier there is a gameplay differentiation which already exists with vasari, if only at higher lvls (but blair stated they might move some of it down, which is good, you too admitted that AND differentiation should be more present at lower lvls), and there is a felt, a perceived differentiation. implementing some of those things to make them feel different even if the gameplay effect isnt all that major is still more than worthy of consideration.
Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top
more differentation is better than less, isn't it?
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Depends on how much more you want Starcraft is at one end of the extreme. Personally, I like how this game is differentiated via powers and stats rather than roles -- for a space game, it just makes sense.
Reply #71 from Sins Forums Top
The thing Schod is forgetting to mention is that while he's 90% right, the 10% is the fact that the Vasari are a little under-powered in the early game. Fix that, and maybe weaken them in the late game, and things work out better.
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I've reitterated a zillion times that I agree the Vasari are exceptionally weak early on and should have their techs brought down a notch, numerous times.
well just wait a second. protoss shields are far from a minor characteristic. every decent player would have many shield batteries and withdraw injured forces immediately to them. also great on the offense. siege tank ring a bell?
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again its minor, yeah so if you're losing on defense late game you would pull back to a healing position, uh, duh. the Terran have medics, would not you use them to heal to? differences: one is better the other is mobile

the TEC vs. the Vasari is far more in depth, phase lane movement, interdiction, focus on survivability rather than active defense etc. etc. I'm beginning to think Starcraft is too easy a comparison.

so in short, yes Protoss shields are a minor characteristic, at least in comparison to the way in which Vasari use their shields.
anyways, if you want I can elaborate on all those details. my point is not that is the only way to differentiate in sins, but that its an additionaly way. more differentation is better than less, isn't it? and even if some of them are shallow, so what? I said earlier there is a gameplay differentiation which already exists with vasari, if only at higher lvls (but blair stated they might move some of it down, which is good, you too admitted that AND differentiation should be more present at lower lvls), and there is a felt, a perceived differentiation. implementing some of those things to make them feel different even if the gameplay effect isnt all that major is still more than worthy of consideration.
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the problem I have with your argument is not that you're promoting differentiation, rather that you are promoting the degredation of current differences in favor of percieved, 2-D differences of stronger/weaker more expensive/less expensive.
Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
Wow, for maybe a fifth time in my existance in these forums I agree with Schem...


weird O_o
Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top

the problem I have with your argument is not that you're promoting differentiation, rather that you are promoting the degredation of current differences in favor of percieved, 2-D differences of stronger/weaker more expensive/less expensive.
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To rephrase:

You want the simple sliding scale of unit strength vs unit numbers, whereas he is enjoying the more dynamic and mature multidimensional scalar exemplified by the idea of being powerful without being strong via units that focus on mobility and (for lack of a better word) interference (screwing with the enemy's ability to do stuff).
Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top
oh yes ron, you made that so very simple.
Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top
You want the simple sliding scale of unit strength vs unit numbers, whereas he is enjoying the more dynamic and mature multidimensional scalar exemplified by the idea of being powerful without being strong via units that focus on mobility and (for lack of a better word) interference (screwing with the enemy's ability to do stuff).
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What you fail to realize is that you can have both.