exactly. not mutually exclusive imo.

you can have both, but then you risk making the balance far too complex

and keep in mind, in a pure economic flow battle the Vasari need to always lose. making them stronger CANNOT change that fact without making the TEC utterly obsolete

so what you fail to realize is that, even if they do balance it in favor of what you want, you arent gonna end up with the ends you want.

Could you explain this a little clearer? Got me intrigued...

the TEC are meant for head on battling, making big masses of units and charging off to battle with absolutely no care for how/where they do it, the Vasari on the other hand are hit and runners, they battle where they choose or in their own terf, not on the border planets where there are heavy defenses

if you make it so that the Vasari can win by simply pumping out units the TEC become absolutely obsolete, as they are weaker than the Vasari AND do not have the redicu11pwonzomgous advantage of the phasegates.

hence why you can make each Vasari ship stronger, but you can never EVER EVER EVER make the Vasari stronger than the TEC in head to head combat, ergo what you guys want can never be done (big battles of numerous small ships against big ships etc. etc. the vaz arent meant to be played that way)

you mean "while you can make each vasari ship stronge ..."? hm, I feel a bit confused here, don't you contradict yourself?

no, you are right. the vasari aren't meant for head on combat and I dont want to play them that way. never did, still don't. maybe I should try a little example, so you get what I mean.

suppose a single vasari capship can take down one kol and seriously damage another in a 2 vs 1 combat. thats overpowered. suppose that same vasari capship cost 10.000 creds, 1000 metal and well over 100 fleet points and respective build time. will they win a head on contest? unlikely, as the tec player will even be able to field a bunch of supporting craft. I do see a problem here that the vasari can easily destroy a bunch of tec craft and then withdrawn with any danger at all, because with such a big and hp heavy craft you have to be highly stupid to actually lose it. I grant you that and that would be something where the balance needs to be done. but aside from that I want to hear now, whether you accept that or not and why.

oh, and please don't pick my numbers apart. its just an extreme example to get me idea across, nothing where I say "this is perfectly balanced". it probably isnt.

oh... I see...

the point is that the ships become prohibitively expensive, so you may have a few powerful ships, but hte TEC will overwhelm you sounds about right

then why have we been arguing for so long? we actually agreed all the time. sry for the missunderstanding I may have cause, this was what I intended all along and I think many of those others did too.

Except... it is mutually exclusive.

Being powerful without being strong precludes the "Protoss" approach of strength in individuals!

A level 15 Vasari can dominate easily. Especially if their cap ships achieve above level 6. The problem is the Vasari dont last long enough to get that high as an AI. As a human player it is doable, but very difficult. Forget numbers for a second, and look at the overall picture. I will repeat what i said in another thread about an AI Vasari. They suck vs pirates in the early game, and in general. The pirates will come in, and wipe out a Vasari world. AI vasari will keep trying to retake it, and fail. Ive seen 1 pirate raid fleet take out 3 Vasari cap ships. Game over for Vasari.

Playing Vasari vs a human TEC player it is a rush to get those labs up, and that research done, and pray you don't get attacked in the meantime. Sure 1 for 1 a Vasari slightly outdoes its TEC counterpart (with the exception of turrets as van pointed out), but it cant field the raw numbers the way TEC can. So the advantage definetly goes to TEC. If TEC can build 30 frigs in the time, and cost it takes me to build 15 who do you think is gonna win the fight? No amount of micro, or tactics will help a Vasari at that point. Especially if retreat is not an option.

Again this is in the early game (1st 1/2 hour). A smart TEC player all he has to do is reach tech lvl 2, form a fleet, Spam some bounty, and let the pir8's attack. Then rush right in, and clean up the mess after the pir8's are done, because he will more than likely outnumber, and partially outclass his Vasari opponent of the same level.

Late game is another story altogether if a Vasari player manages to last that long.

How many MP games lasted that long (without a drop/restart)?

Level 15 vasari?

That said, Major, let me point out that we agree that Vasari need to be rebalanced for more strength early game, and less late.

see, I think you're the only one who thinks that the Vasari should be strong without going tit for tat with the TEC, Multi, kosc and the others have been promoting that view willy nilly.

Basically , I think schod wants a "skilled" race for experts that noobs wont be able to handle because they only know how to steamroll but experts will excel at because they can use their "skills" to maximise the Vasaris full potential.

, just jkin , but I might be right

sorry, I dont get your point. could you please elaborate, make an example or sth?



hmm, well lets see what they say.

they've already said it a zillion times "I want to come in with a few vasari ships against a TEC armada and come out alive" over and over again, its simply not feasible no matter the expense of the ships.

im not sure what is meant with the "tit for tat" but i do agree the Vasari needs to be alot stronger, and the TEC need more units.
I also think the Vasari should be able to win any 1vs1 capship battle against the TEC, but to make it fair the TEC will have more ships.

not clear enough. question: if a tec and a vasari player fight with two well composed fleets that used up the same resources to build, who should win? I say tec, less powerful individual ships but more of them. implications: vasari need to rely on other things that raw strengh -> good.

so in essence you can make them tougher and give them more striking power, but they can NEVER be more powerful, period.

Thats a matter of opinion

no multi, its a matter of facts
facts being that they would be too powerful if they did.

not if they balance it right

that IS balancing it right multi! yeesh.

Fine, we'll keep the Vasari the way they are now, and watch how many players drop, because they cant figure out how to win with them, or survive long enough to get the tech needed for the "skills" to win. Right now in an evenly matched fight the Vasari will lose to TEC. Forget about the damn lore. Forget about the numbers. This is including using all the ability's you have at level 3 which is about as far the average Vasari player will get before he gets wiped off the map.

*sigh* you're all overreacting because you cannot fit the puzzle together in the first 30 seconds, like I did.

YES the gate tech needs to be brought down a level or three, but beyond that there really isnt any MAJOR changes to be made.

oh but there will