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[UTTER CHEESE] Last Stand is ridiculous on Fortress mode

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[UTTER CHEESE] Last Stand is ridiculous on Fortress mode

from Demigod Forums

Just finished a game in Fortress mode on Cataract.  I was playing the Unclean Beast and my partner was a Torchbearer (fire mode .. it matters), and our opponents were a Regulus and an Oak.  The beginning of the game was tough, but we outplayed them, got several levels ahead, and were on our way to dominating the map and making a final push against their fortresses.

 

Then Oak hit level 10.

 

From then on the game went like this: Oak respawns at base, charges at fortress, attacks, we kill him, he becomes invincible and does more damage, and keeps attacking our fortress.

 

We tried killing him near his base, we tried pushing straight for their fortresses, we even tried getting a Universal Gadget and healing the things, but we weren't able to counter the fact that Oak, by himself, with a decent amount of armor, can take down a fortress with no consequences.  Yeah, we killed him as soon as he showed up, but ten seconds of free buffed attacks against a fortress kills it in a couple passes.

 

Is there any counter to this?  It just feels utterly unfair to have an invincible opponent destroying the thing you need to keep safe.  Maybe if the structure armor/HP upgrades were worth anything I could use those?  :S   If the map was larger you could ambush him on his way in -- but we tried that and he just ignored us; by the time we killed him he was halfway to the fortress and he just ran a few more steps to finish it off.

 

 

And to add insult to injury, the guy playing Oak wasn't even very good.  I've played Oak lots of times and I know how to play him; this guy was using Shield at the wrong time (which is what gave us some early kills and let us turn around a kill deficit), not using Penitence, not using his minions well...but it didn't matter because he got to level 10 and knew how to commit suicide repeatedly, which is apparently what you do to win.

 

Meh.

6,753 views 42 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top

IF Last Stand needs a nerf (and I'm not convinced it does), it should be modified to only do damage to the DGs who killed/assissted Oak.  And that damage should be buffed by a ungodly amount - 200%!!!!

Currently, I'd never take Last Stand except perhaps to take advantage of this thread.  But if I knew I was going to take down a bad guy with me 90% of the time, I'd take it.

Reply #27 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Colonel_Jessep, reply 23

Quoting themadmanazn, reply 20
I also think spit shouldn't be able to target buildings. So If Oak gets nerfed, I saw we nerf Ub too! This! have you ever played fortress on the receiving end of an Unclean Beast spit team? They don't have to die, they don't have to get to level 10, they just have to run into range, spit and retreat for a few seconds and the damage is done. They are also designed to outrun basically every other demigod. You are looking at 1500 damage every 7-10 seconds (multiplied with the number of Uncles). You can't cast universal gadget fast enough to undo the damage. Believe me, I tried...
End of Colonel_Jessep's quote

 

\begin{sarcasm}

Let's nerf everyone!

OMG Rook can run in and hammer smash for 1700 damage, and then drain 2000 additional health from the structure while disabling it! TB can run in and cast basically all of his spells, he just does that and runs away!!! OMG so much damage! Regulus can shoot buildings from out of their range!!!!!! soooo OP.  QoT uproot, sedna heals, etc...

\end{sarcasm}

 

Seriously though, If you have multiple demigods targeting one structure, then that structure will be gone. You need to drive them off. UB spit is not overpowered. I'm sick of reading about this.

 

 

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting hoogamaphone, reply 2

Quoting Colonel_Jessep, reply 23
Quoting themadmanazn, reply 20
I also think spit shouldn't be able to target buildings. So If Oak gets nerfed, I saw we nerf Ub too! This! have you ever played fortress on the receiving end of an Unclean Beast spit team? They don't have to die, they don't have to get to level 10, they just have to run into range, spit and retreat for a few seconds and the damage is done. They are also designed to outrun basically every other demigod. You are looking at 1500 damage every 7-10 seconds (multiplied with the number of Uncles). You can't cast universal gadget fast enough to undo the damage. Believe me, I tried...
 

\begin{sarcasm}

Let's nerf everyone!

OMG Rook can run in and hammer smash for 1700 damage, and then drain 2000 additional health from the structure while disabling it! TB can run in and cast basically all of his spells, he just does that and runs away!!! OMG so much damage! Regulus can shoot buildings from out of their range!!!!!! soooo OP.  QoT uproot, sedna heals, etc...

\end{sarcasm}

 

Seriously though, If you have multiple demigods targeting one structure, then that structure will be gone. You need to drive them off. UB spit is not overpowered. I'm sick of reading about this.

 

 
End of hoogamaphone's quote

Someone didn't read what this thread is about, lol. Now if you are tired of reading it, stop reading =)

Reply #29 from Demigod Forums Top

I think there are enough options to counter a Last Stand Oak build to not need any nerfs.

 

In particular, the nerf to not allow him to damage structures seems quite illogical to me.  If you are playing as Oak and get a Last Stand near a wounded tower, not being able to take it out because some team could not up with a counter one player in another game type seems a bit odd.

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

You can Stun Oak while Shielded or in Last Stand.

You lost because you lacked those abilities in your team. Last Stand is fine, learn to deal with it appropriately.

Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top

Last Stand is not fine, it's ridiculous. The movement and attack speed is insane, especially for a weapon damage Oak. Thing is, I'm happy with the principle of Last Stand, it's just bejeezus too much. I say that the effect should be instant with move buffs, but there's no need for him to get increassed attack buffs. I've seen Last Stand kill weaker DGs from full. Last Stand should be useful for when the enemy DG survived on less than about 1000 HP. There's no need for it to be more than that.

 

As for UB, Spit simply does too much damage.

Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top

im laughing @ every spit UB :/ also i do to oak :D

Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top

 Yeah its a cheesy strat but i see one fast and easy way to fix this exploit :

Put a cooldown on last stand - simple isnt it ?

 

Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top

Last Stand's probably too powerful period, but I don't see any sensical way to change where it wouldn't be awesome against fortresses.

Maybe if the structure armor/HP upgrades were worth anything I could use those? 
End of quote

You should be using those, _especially_ in fortress mode. You'll get a lot better bang for your buck than Universal Gadgets, that's for sure. 

 

 

Reply #36 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Doo, reply 8
Maybe make the damage bonus work against DGs only?
End of Doo's quote

I was thinking make it apply to anything but buildings. After all, something called "Last Stand" should have a chiefly defensive purpose (in a tactical sense). (You can have defensive tactics within an offensive strategy of course.)

Reply #37 from Demigod Forums Top

If as a DG you get caught by last stand than you just arent paying attention. The animation is so obvious and slow enough to give you a huge head start running away or in the OP case running to the Oak to stun him instantly. I think I got caught in the first game I ever played against a last stand Oak and never since.

annoying does not mean its OP

 

 

Reply #38 from Demigod Forums Top

For last stand, you get about 10 seconds of raping, but when you attack a building, that time should decrease at a faster rate.  for example, with 10 seconds of rape, your rate is 1 second.  when you hit a building, from that point on, that rate becomes 1.5-1.7 seconds.

Reply #39 from Demigod Forums Top

Last Stand is not fine, it's ridiculous. The movement and attack speed is insane, especially for a weapon damage Oak. Thing is, I'm happy with the principle of Last Stand, it's just bejeezus too much. I say that the effect should be instant with move buffs, but there's no need for him to get increassed attack buffs. I've seen Last Stand kill weaker DGs from full. Last Stand should be useful for when the enemy DG survived on less than about 1000 HP. There's no need for it to be more than that.
End of quote

NO!

Maybe make the damage bonus work against DGs only?
End of quote

NO!

Put a cooldown on last stand - simple isnt it ?
End of quote

NO!

I was thinking make it apply to anything but buildings. After all, something called "Last Stand" should have a chiefly defensive purpose (in a tactical sense). (You can have defensive tactics within an offensive strategy of course.)
End of quote

NO!

For last stand, you get about 10 seconds of raping, but when you attack a building, that time should decrease at a faster rate. for example, with 10 seconds of rape, your rate is 1 second. when you hit a building, from that point on, that rate becomes 1.5-1.7 seconds.
End of quote

NO!

IF Last Stand needs a nerf (and I'm not convinced it does), it should be modified to only do damage to the DGs who killed/assissted Oak. And that damage should be buffed by a ungodly amount - 200%!!!!

Currently, I'd never take Last Stand except perhaps to take advantage of this thread. But if I knew I was going to take down a bad guy with me 90% of the time, I'd take it.
End of quote

Ok gentlemen.  Now we're talking!

Reply #40 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting lukkas_ROCKUS, reply 14

Last Stand is not fine, it's ridiculous. The movement and attack speed is insane, especially for a weapon damage Oak. Thing is, I'm happy with the principle of Last Stand, it's just bejeezus too much. I say that the effect should be instant with move buffs, but there's no need for him to get increassed attack buffs. I've seen Last Stand kill weaker DGs from full. Last Stand should be useful for when the enemy DG survived on less than about 1000 HP. There's no need for it to be more than that.
NO!


Maybe make the damage bonus work against DGs only?
NO!


Put a cooldown on last stand - simple isnt it ?
NO!


I was thinking make it apply to anything but buildings. After all, something called "Last Stand" should have a chiefly defensive purpose (in a tactical sense). (You can have defensive tactics within an offensive strategy of course.)
NO!


For last stand, you get about 10 seconds of raping, but when you attack a building, that time should decrease at a faster rate. for example, with 10 seconds of rape, your rate is 1 second. when you hit a building, from that point on, that rate becomes 1.5-1.7 seconds.
NO!


IF Last Stand needs a nerf (and I'm not convinced it does), it should be modified to only do damage to the DGs who killed/assissted Oak. And that damage should be buffed by a ungodly amount - 200%!!!!

Currently, I'd never take Last Stand except perhaps to take advantage of this thread. But if I knew I was going to take down a bad guy with me 90% of the time, I'd take it.
Ok gentlemen.  Now we're talking!
End of lukkas_ROCKUS's quote

So the only "nerf" you want for last stand is to allow Oak to deal 1500 (300% damage on top of 500 with spirits) damage at 300% attack speed and move at 3 times speed on all demigods who helped kill him? That's ****ing ridiculous. You wouldn't take the enemy demigods 90% of the time; killing oak would be a bad idea 100% of the time because he would get a kill on everybody who assissted him.

Reply #41 from Demigod Forums Top

So the only "nerf" you want for last stand is to allow Oak to deal 1500 (300% damage on top of 500 with spirits) damage at 300% attack speed and move at 3 times speed on all demigods who helped kill him? That's ****ing ridiculous. You wouldn't take the enemy demigods 90% of the time; killing oak would be a bad idea 100% of the time because he would get a kill on everybody who assissted him.
End of quote

Yea - that's about right.  The only way I'd want to take a skill which requires my death to activate is if it'd have a killer payback.  As it stands, I'm not willing to let myself die for a relatively modest buff.  That's too high a cost.

And maybe it would count for the assists - maybe I could only go after the DG who landed the killing blow.

Do you get XP/Gold if you kill during Last Stand?

All that being said...  this is only IF we were to buff/debuff Last Stand.

Reply #42 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting lukkas_ROCKUS, reply 16

So the only "nerf" you want for last stand is to allow Oak to deal 1500 (300% damage on top of 500 with spirits) damage at 300% attack speed and move at 3 times speed on all demigods who helped kill him? That's ****ing ridiculous. You wouldn't take the enemy demigods 90% of the time; killing oak would be a bad idea 100% of the time because he would get a kill on everybody who assissted him.
Yea - that's about right.  The only way I'd want to take a skill which requires my death to activate is if it'd have a killer payback.  As it stands, I'm not willing to let myself die for a relatively modest buff.  That's too high a cost.

And maybe it would count for the assists - maybe I could only go after the DG who landed the killing blow.

Do you get XP/Gold if you kill during Last Stand?

All that being said...  this is only IF we were to buff/debuff Last Stand.
End of lukkas_ROCKUS's quote

You get XP and gold for kills during last stand. And that buff is simply absurd. It changes it from a skill that could get you payback and at least drives the enemy away to a skill that will guarantee killing Oak is a bad idea.