Frogboy Frogboy

Only MY intellectual property counts..

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Only MY intellectual property counts..

A view from the glass house

from WinCustomize Forums

I've been observating (and participating) in some interesting..ahem..discussions with regards to Adam's article on using SkinStudio to import .msstyles files as WindowBlinds skins.

Some intersting "outrage" at the thought that some user, in the privacy of their own home, might run a skin that was originally in .msstyles format in WindowBlinds. That this was, somehow, a violation of the rights of the skinner.

Let's be clear: No one is suggesting that someone should be able to import in a .msstyles skin and then start being able to upload it around. You still need permission. The rights of the skin author should still be respected.

But we also have to have some perspective as well. .msstyles is MICROSOFT'S FORMAT.  It's a format that NO ONE has legally licensed to make use of. And it gets worse - every single .msstyles on the net is a derivative of the Luna.msstyles.  People either reshack luna.msstyles (or an existing derivative of it) to change the bitmaps and data in it or they use a $20 editor that is available that reshacks luna.msstyles with a prettier interface. 

The reason WinCustomize currently does not have a .msstyles section is because of that issue: Can we condone the distribution of what is borderline pirated files?  It's the same reason why we don't include Boot screens that are patched files of the NT kernal (we only support .bootskin and had to write a freeware program just so that we could have boot screens here).  You can't just patch someone else's copyrighted stuff and pass it around.  Believe me, I would love to have a .msstyles section here from a purely capitalistic point of view and if someone can rationalize it for me to have a section for them, go for it - I'm ready to believe.  But like I said, we're talking pretty gray market stuff.

But let's get back - so then the people who object to the idea that WindowBlinds would somehow profit from the ability to make use of .msstyles.  This is apparently somehow different than the commercial programs that have existed for the past 3 years that make use of .msstyles by patching uxtheme.dll.

And anyone who claims that hacking your system files to use .msstyles should explain to others why the main sites that promote patching uxtheme.dll do not have forums.  Even the main NON-FREE developer of a uxtheme patching program removed their forums. The most popular .msstyles distribution site has no forums.  Could it possibly be that it's because of the technical disasters it causes? I don't know. What I do know is how much tech support WE get from people who messed around with their files and blew away their default visual style or had problems when they applied a service pack or something else.  In my opinion, anyone trying to claim that patching your system files (either in RAM or on disk) is "safe" is not telling the whole story.

Puttin that aside - there are already programs making a profit from .msstyles and have been for years. Where's the outrage? But because the handful of original msstyles floating around the net might be able to be added to the 3000+ existing WindowBlinds skins Stardock is the greedy one? Please.

Regardless of the format, the rights of skin authors need to be respected. They are artists.  As the #6 most downloaded skin author on this site, I know something of the work that goes into skinning.  But I also know where my rights end.  When someone downloads my skin onto their own computer, my rights end.  What they do with it on their own computer is their business. People have been downloading and modifying skins for their own use since day 1.  And of all formats, .msstyles authors happen to be using a format that requires them to be using someone else's stuff without their permission in the first place. 

skinning
45,808 views 136 replies
Reply #76 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The problem I see with porting in the other direction....wba to msstyles...other than many WBSkins would break because WindowBlinds adds functionality to your GUI, is that someone would have to code a program to read the inner file *.uis to determine which images to port and Stardock clearly states that it cannot be done within the *.uis file itself....

"This skin was created for use specifically by WindowBlinds or programs explicitly authorized by Stardock to use WindowBlinds skins. This skin may not be converted, imported, or read by any program without the explicit written consent of Stardock Corporation. The skin itself is owned by the copyright holder (the skin author) and use of his or her's intellectual property materials is expressly forbidden without the consent of the skin author."
Reply #77 from WinCustomize Forums Top
You guys have good arguments. All i'll say is that i don't like when people can change our stuff and show people. Now i have to go back to work because 18 hours on my pc yesterday just wasn't enough for me.

Am i the only one who hates CES this year?
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #78 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jeff - I weaseled out of CES this year! When you get back, tell us what happened!
Reply #79 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Now Here's a guy that has the right attitude. This is one of the most liberal GUI Dev's and quite refreshing to see his attitude. This is just to throw an extra bone into the crowd, and not let the Mac Crowd feel left out.
http://swizcore.com/SS/macOSX.php [Swizcore Studio]

"So your a PC/Linux user who has ported an SS original?
I get so many emails from users of other operating systems letting me know that they have created their own ports of my work for their platforms it astounds me. I'll be very frank with you, the only community I am worried about is the Macintosh community; I create the OSX originals and strive for bug free, well thought and well executed GUI's. I do not endorse any particular port of my work for these other platforms. I do not attempt to regulate ports.

Port and distribute as you like while noting that the port is inspired by but unrelated to Swizcore Studio"
Reply #80 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Jeff - I weaseled out of CES this year! When you get back, tell us what happened!



no no i'm not going thank god. I just have 3 customers who are going who all wanted their work done in time for CES. Hence the 18 hour day in front of the computer yesterday and the long days prior. Next year i'm sending out a bulletin to all of our clients letting them know that all CES-bound jobs are to be contracted no later than Nov 1.
Reply #81 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Now Here's a guy that has the right attitude. This is one of the most liberal GUI Dev's and quite refreshing to see his attitude.


So because he could care less what people do with his work he has the right attitude?
Reply #82 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Whats CES? Sounds important....
Reply #83 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Who in their right mind would want to import any of the endlessly repetitive msstyle luna clones into WB anyway. It's like having a rusty old banger patched on to a Ferrari chassis...
Reply #84 from WinCustomize Forums Top
From FrostedFlakes

When I was speaking in that forum, I made it clear that they were my views and I was not representing customize.org with those views.

My comment about the quality of winamp skins on this site still stands. I find that there are some very talented skinners here such as zrco. apocolypse67 is another that comes to mind... but the majority of the winamp skins here, I do find to be very poor quality. If that hurts your feelings, then that explains why you are at wincustomize and not customize.org. At customize we do not sugar coat it, we dont bullshit.. if something sucks, we will tell you so and offer criticism, if something is good we will also give you credit for good work. Some people cant handle being told that there work is not perfect. Face it, perfect doesnt exist.

Your opinion about my skins is fine. You are allowed your opinion, just as much as I am allowed mine.


as a skinner of limited ability I am allowed mine too.

I'd bet a fair amount of money if any of the admins on this site came on here and made a thread how a certain category of skins on customize.org sucks balls , I'd bet some of you customize.org fanboys would be on here all ranting and raving on how Stardock is the big bad evil and they are bad for having an ' official ' opinion against a group of skinners . Before you reply to this with your religious indignation , really think about it. If anything Brad and co wouldn't any worse than you people are.

I have no real dog in this hunt except I make reasonably sucky Winamp skins.
Reply #85 from WinCustomize Forums Top
CES = Consumer Electronics Show (maybe?)

Posted via WinCustomize Browser/Stardock Central
Reply #86 from JoeUser Forums Top
"This skin was created for use specifically by WindowBlinds or programs explicitly authorized by Stardock to use WindowBlinds skins. This skin may not be converted, imported, or read by any program without the explicit written consent of Stardock Corporation. The skin itself is owned by the copyright holder (the skin author) and use of his or her's intellectual property materials is expressly forbidden without the consent of the skin author."


Essencay -

I had forgotten about that little tag added to each skin. If there is a similar one tagged to .msstyles, then it's wrong for SKS to convert them and Brad doesn't have much of an argument. I have this feeling, since essentially all .msstyles are warez, that there is no such rights statement attached. Since SD have provided the converter for free, there is no (direct) economic benefit derived by encouraging or enabling use of warez'd .msstyles, so maybe that's OK. That's one of the arguments MS used in defending the bundling of IE (at least they claimed it was included for free), too, as I recall.

All that said, given the open nature of the .uis file and use of standard unprotected graphics, anyone could take individual graphics from a skin and build an .msstyle manually for personal use without incurring my wrath. If they were to figure out a way to automate it and distributed that way freely, what would SD's beef be? The whole spirit of skinning is consistent with that. I wouldn't want skinning to get bogged down in obscure IP rights arguments, or for SD to come up with a mechanism to effectively "copyprotect" skins. While there is already a commercial side to skinning that is perfectly legit and needs to be protected, the logical endpoint of "copyprotection" is that WC & other skinning community sites convert fully to paid enterprises where every skin has a price for download and the IP owner gets a cut. Maybe that's inevitable, but it wouldn't be the same and would put pressure on skinners that isn't there now, not to mention open a huge Pandora's box of who gets what for what. FWIW.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #87 from WinCustomize Forums Top
TSF - I was just pointing out how free and easy, he seemed to be with his views on Porting.
Reply #88 from WinCustomize Forums Top
"Customize.org's staff were slamming on SkinStudio not because it converts skins (since they can't defend that since many of them convert lots of things) but because WindowBlinds might profit from such conversion."

Nope. Because you profit from the work the author's did and the spirit they nmay have produced it in, not the conversion. Because you profit from something that was intended to be given freely and used with a free hack. You know the staff at custo endorses the .dll hack, screw that TGT link. We do convert for personal use, but usually with permission, especially for screenshots. And if a skinner took issue with a mod to an original work of his that had been modded without permission and then shown in a screenshot, you bet your ass we'd take that shot down as soon as he requested it. It's about respect. If he doesn't like how it was modded, who's more important, the skinner or the print screen guy?

It really doesn't matter because you'll do what you want, and the msstyle authors who want to will find ways to befuddle the autoconversion into wb. Problem solved.

Most people think Stylebulider itself is crap-o-la. If you included a straight up msstyle builder in Skin Studio (esp. the free edition), I'd cease to have a problem with the conversion, because at least you'd be providing the msstyles authors a nice tool. I don't see why this would be a problem, since your willingness to convert other's images and work from this supposedly borderline illegal format hasn't made Stardock pause.
Reply #89 from WinCustomize Forums Top
colossus72

do you feel the same about StyleXP or Starskin?
Reply #90 from WinCustomize Forums Top
colosuss72, how can Stardock include an msstyles, editor included with SkinStudio.
Stardock does not support, something which violates an End Users EULA. As far as I have observed here, Ports are free, and everyone I have noticed included permission, from its' original Artist.
I mean sure some Skin Authors, have Pay Suites. Some are even StarDock sponsored, but I have yet to see one that is a Port. Also any and ALL Msstyles Authors are working from the Fruit of the Poisoned Tree Tainted premise. Where the Artist might be retaining Copyright of the Images he created, He is NOT Retaining Patent Rights. He is infringing on the Derivative Patents of Microsoft. One does not Justify the Other. In your Statement above, your request of Stardock to include, some sort of Msstyle Editor, is an attemt to get StarDock to encourage and assist an Artist (which can own the copyrighted Image) violate a legally established Patent. As StarDock is a Intellectual Property based company, this is ludacris.
Reply #92 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Bar a few high quality windowblinds skins, that's the only way you'll get a skin that you can actually use for long periods of time.

Reply #93 from JoeUser Forums Top
"The reason WinCustomize currently does not have a .msstyles section is because of that issue: Can we condone the distribution of what is borderline pirated files?"

That's alot of garbage. The reason you don't have an msstyle section is because it's a direct competitor with windowblinds. If the option to hack .msstyles wasnt there, you guys would have complete reign over all. As it stands, there are alot of people who think your software is bloatware or not worth the money.

"Even the main NON-FREE developer of a uxtheme patching program removed their forums. The most popular .msstyles distribution site has no forums. Could it possibly be that it's because of the technical disasters it causes?"

No, it's because no one was willing to pay TGTSoft for their garbage bloated app, when they could get a free hack that doesnt add or remove anything from their PC. It's a simple replacement of a .dll. When people screw that up, that's their fault. The instructions are clear.

".msstyles is MICROSOFT'S FORMAT. It's a format that NO ONE has legally licensed to make use of. And it gets worse - every single .msstyles on the net is a derivative of the Luna.msstyles."



No shit. That's the most efficient way. If you built a skin from the ground up, it would still come out the same as if you built on top of another one. It's called adapting and reusing. It'd be like coding a notepad program every time you wanted to type a letter. It makes no sense.


In anycase, I have no problem with people importing .msstyles to windowblinds. Bar a few high quality windowblinds skins, that's the only way you'll get a skin that you can actually use for long periods of time.
Reply #94 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Bar a few high quality windowblinds skins, that's the only way you'll get a skin that you can actually use for long periods of time

ive yet to find a MS style i would want to use, much less one i would use for a long perid of time....
Reply #95 from JoeUser Forums Top
"EVERY single .msstyles file on the net (I've yet to see an exception) is a modification of the original luna.msstyles. Most msstyles authors are unaware of this." Said by Frogboy

And every image is a modification of your monitor pixels colors ?
Reply #96 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Admin Jafo Maybe i am not sure of one thing...You say Bar a few high quality windowblinds skins, that's the only way you'll get a skin that you can actually use for long periods of time. But i thaught that the more the better it is for Wincustomize.bigger selection, maybe leading to more members.there for adding more to the community and adding some needed money.But i am interested in your logic so please tell us how smaller is better..
Reply #97 from JoeUser Forums Top
No, I said that. Smaller isnt always better, but power users generally like slick, clean interfaces vs a theme made by someone who was obviously suffering crack withdrawal during the making. Granted, MANY upon many msstyles are like that. Wincustomize is for windowblinds, what themexp is for .msstyles. Atleast we admit it, rather than parading around like every single windowblinds skin is a perfect work of art deserving of praise and adoration.

90% of windowblinds themes are complete crap.
89.99% of .msstyle themes are complete crap.

100% of quality .msstyle themes are FREE.

Reply #98 from WinCustomize Forums Top
100% of msstyles are illegal hacks...

Also, insulting folks is a poor way of getting a point across...or maybe that in itself has made a point
Reply #99 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Facts are stubborn things.

Fact: Customize.org provides only ONE link to tell users how to make use of the msstyles on their site: A link to a $20 program to apply msstyles.

Therefore: It is incredibly hypocritical for the admins of Customize.org to complain about the remote possibility that someone might purchase WindowBlinds as a result of someone being able to convert msstyles to WindowBlinds format.

Fact: WindowBlinds has a free version. Never expires. Never times out.

Fact: Conversion of msstyles to WindowBlinds format by SkinStudio is also free.

Therefore: A user can make use of msstyles via WindowBlinds without paying a thing. And in fact, Customize.org should be advocating this rather than attacking it since this is one way for users to make use of msstyles without paying a cent AND without violating any EULAs.

Reply #100 from WinCustomize Forums Top

That's alot of garbage. The reason you don't have an msstyle section is because it's a direct competitor with windowblinds. If the option to hack .msstyles wasnt there, you guys would have complete reign over all. As it stands, there are alot of people who think your software is bloatware or not worth the money.

This must be why WinCustomize.com is the largest site for distributing Litestep themes, which compete against DesktopX.  We also have Rainlendar sections and SysMetrix sections which compete against DesktopX as well.  We have a NextSTART section which competes against ObjectBar.

Stardock is also the one who provides free hosting to Samurize.com. 

Since WindowBlinds users can make use of .msstyles, from a purely business point of view, it would make sense for us to have such a section. 

Now that said, I no longer think an msstyles section would be illegal. Not because the situation has changed but because Microsoft has not attempted to stop the distribution of .msstyles and therefore has made it legal by default. 

But we are wary of adding the section at this point since Longhorn's going to be out in a few months and the .msstyles of today will be dead.

As for people who describe WindowBlinds as "bloated" we have a term for those people: Dumb people. And frankly, I could care less what they think. They're the kidn of people who would rationalize that MS Paint is just as good as Photoshop.