Frogboy Frogboy

Only MY intellectual property counts..

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Only MY intellectual property counts..

A view from the glass house

from WinCustomize Forums

I've been observating (and participating) in some interesting..ahem..discussions with regards to Adam's article on using SkinStudio to import .msstyles files as WindowBlinds skins.

Some intersting "outrage" at the thought that some user, in the privacy of their own home, might run a skin that was originally in .msstyles format in WindowBlinds. That this was, somehow, a violation of the rights of the skinner.

Let's be clear: No one is suggesting that someone should be able to import in a .msstyles skin and then start being able to upload it around. You still need permission. The rights of the skin author should still be respected.

But we also have to have some perspective as well. .msstyles is MICROSOFT'S FORMAT.  It's a format that NO ONE has legally licensed to make use of. And it gets worse - every single .msstyles on the net is a derivative of the Luna.msstyles.  People either reshack luna.msstyles (or an existing derivative of it) to change the bitmaps and data in it or they use a $20 editor that is available that reshacks luna.msstyles with a prettier interface. 

The reason WinCustomize currently does not have a .msstyles section is because of that issue: Can we condone the distribution of what is borderline pirated files?  It's the same reason why we don't include Boot screens that are patched files of the NT kernal (we only support .bootskin and had to write a freeware program just so that we could have boot screens here).  You can't just patch someone else's copyrighted stuff and pass it around.  Believe me, I would love to have a .msstyles section here from a purely capitalistic point of view and if someone can rationalize it for me to have a section for them, go for it - I'm ready to believe.  But like I said, we're talking pretty gray market stuff.

But let's get back - so then the people who object to the idea that WindowBlinds would somehow profit from the ability to make use of .msstyles.  This is apparently somehow different than the commercial programs that have existed for the past 3 years that make use of .msstyles by patching uxtheme.dll.

And anyone who claims that hacking your system files to use .msstyles should explain to others why the main sites that promote patching uxtheme.dll do not have forums.  Even the main NON-FREE developer of a uxtheme patching program removed their forums. The most popular .msstyles distribution site has no forums.  Could it possibly be that it's because of the technical disasters it causes? I don't know. What I do know is how much tech support WE get from people who messed around with their files and blew away their default visual style or had problems when they applied a service pack or something else.  In my opinion, anyone trying to claim that patching your system files (either in RAM or on disk) is "safe" is not telling the whole story.

Puttin that aside - there are already programs making a profit from .msstyles and have been for years. Where's the outrage? But because the handful of original msstyles floating around the net might be able to be added to the 3000+ existing WindowBlinds skins Stardock is the greedy one? Please.

Regardless of the format, the rights of skin authors need to be respected. They are artists.  As the #6 most downloaded skin author on this site, I know something of the work that goes into skinning.  But I also know where my rights end.  When someone downloads my skin onto their own computer, my rights end.  What they do with it on their own computer is their business. People have been downloading and modifying skins for their own use since day 1.  And of all formats, .msstyles authors happen to be using a format that requires them to be using someone else's stuff without their permission in the first place. 

skinning
45,814 views 136 replies
Reply #101 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Re every msstyles being a derivative of Luna.msstyles

If you built a skin from the ground up, it would still come out the same as if you built on top of another one. It's called adapting and reusing. It'd be like coding a notepad program every time you wanted to type a letter. It makes no sense.

This is a ridiculous analogy. That's like saying every WindowBlinds skin should be a derivative of say the Alienware skin from The Skins Factory because it's "efficient".  If we made an msstyles editor, I can assure you that it could just as easily have been done without patching luna.msstyles to start with.

For your analogy to make sense it would be like loading up your "letter" and changing just the words you need to change rather than simply writing a new letter.

Reply #102 from JoeUser Forums Top
Frogboy you really need to hire a PR person. You dont see bill gates in forums yelling and cussing at "kids" who prefer linux to windows do you? You should act like the CEO of a company and just run your business! Act like a grown up instead of a baby who throws tantrums when things dont go his way or when others disagree with you.

You're 33 years old now so stop spewing hate about CUSTOMIZE.ORG and learn to listen to what others have to say. We the .msstyle authors don't want our works tampered with by your program without our consent. Each and everyone us are potential customers but we are turned off to your products by some of your comments. These same "kids" whom you seem to hate so much over at customize.org are all potential customers, learn to reach out instead of being hateful. If hate consumes you then nothing good can come of that in the long run.


-max
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #103 from WinCustomize Forums Top
They arent potential customers if they believe our programs to be inferior just because they are legal.
Reply #104 from WinCustomize Forums Top
max .. ive yet to see froggy cuss at you guys here ... also you are 1 MS styles skinner .. you dont speak for all.....as for spewing hate , you get what you give ? i saw the attacks at custo.org.. you spewed hate there but labled it "defending the skinners"..
total hipocracy
Reply #105 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Max from customize.org


.. whose the idiot in this equation?


This is a fine example of your of your ignorances, in action.


You imply that there has to be an Idiot in the equation, or rather should I say, you want so desperately to prove that there is an Idiot. The truth of the matter is that Brad is right and you are wrong, and no matter what ancedotal evidences, you trot out, noone here will buy into your arguments, because your logic is flawed.


You Sir, are attempting to build a house on Sand.
Reply #106 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Wow, I never realized the pointing out hypocricy is the equivalent of "spewing hatred" and "cussing".

Let me make sure I have this straight:

Customize.org admins call Stardock "slimey" and say that "most skinners on WinCustomize.com "suck" and that we're "just about the money" because a free program Stardock makes allows users to convert .msstyles to be used by another program (WindowBlinds) that can be used for free. And the objection is that some percentage of people might possibly pay $20 to upgrade to the enhanced version of WindowBlinds. 

And as a result, this is "exploitation" of msstyles skinners who did not upload their skins to Customize.org with the thought that people would have to pay money to use them.

And so when I point out that in fact customize.org's msstyles section recommends people to go to a website and pay $20 to make use of those msstyles that is considered "spewing hatred" and "cussing"?

If you want to see hatred, perhaps you should look to Customize.org, land of abusive admins and users who actually use profanity when describing the skins and themes provided freely by skin authors. 

Reply #107 from WinCustomize Forums Top
And what are you exactly arguing about here??

1) There are msstyles authors who (freely) gave their permission to port their themes to WB and redistribute them here on WC. Those ports were available long before SK did have the ability to import msstyles.

2) There are msstyles authors who were asked and did not give their permission to port their themes. Those ports were never uploaded (or if the porter tries to, will be rejected by the admins/moderators here). No one here makes illegal ports of msstyles and distributes them.

3) In three years here at WC I have never seen or heard of a msstyles port that was sold for money or that did not work with the free version of WindowBlinds.

4) I often take the shutdown dialogue of WB files and use it to make a Rainy skin if no matching skin is available for download. I do not redistribute that skin, and I also have never heard of WB authors being upset by that. If I buy a CD by a music artist who does not want his/her stuff to be sold on the internet, I still can convert his/her songs to an mp3 format and upload it to my ipod, as long as I don't distribute the songs. I can download a bmp wallpaper from the net and convert it to a jpg to decrease the file size, as long as I don't distribute that file. I can take a WB skin and make a compact star-menu for it (if none exists already) but I can't distribute that file....... I could go on for another couples of pages here, but I hope you get the point.

..... so what exactly is the problem here???
Reply #108 from JoeUser Forums Top
you guys are grown men fighting with "kids" as you say.. whose the idiot in this equation? If you want to see other .msstyle themers post a response as well I can send them your way. I am "1" of many.
Reply #109 from WinCustomize Forums Top
This whole argument is deeply flawed. If someone only wants to use msstyles they will use the hack and not bother using Windowblinds. If someone wants to use windowblinds skins then they will already have windowblinds and adding the ability to import msstyles adds no extra incentive to them to buy it as it's available in the free version anyway. So the only profit stardock will make from this is that those who port their skins to WB format will be able to do it without any hassle, making it more likely that they will do so (which is their decision and as they are the artists this has no relevance to the current argument). The users of said skins win because the msstyle skinner can add new WB compatible extras to the skin if they wish. They also have a choice of whether to use the free uxtheme hack or whether to use WB. The artist wins because they have a larger target audience. This whole argument smacks of the usual bias toward Stardock in general and Frogboy specifically. The only person who loses is those who cannot stand to have anything they create used in a stardock program which in my opinion is extremely petty. Using the argument that 'the skins are created for free and so people can use them for free' does not hold water as the skins are still available to be used for free. The uxtheme patch can still be used by anyone that wants to use it. Having the ability to import them into WB does not suddenly stop them being free for all and sundry to use. It's like uploading a wallpaper and putting a clause that only The Gimp can be used to view it and photoshop cannot. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
Reply #111 from WinCustomize Forums Top
butch123 ....I was quoting another person's comment....then added a ' ', which indicated I was laughing at the comment's sense and logic [or lack of]....
Reply #112 from WinCustomize Forums Top
If the option to hack .msstyles wasnt there, you guys would have complete reign over all.


That's a bad thing? Actually using a program to skin windows that will not hack my xp system is a bad thing?
Reply #113 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Truthfully it is weird that XP allows the .dll to be patched.
I thought one of the (ahem) features of XP Stability, was that it allowed programs to think that, system files were being modified, but in actuality they simply let a program modify a dummy and replaced the modified version, with the original after install.
"Windows File Protection
Purpose

Windows® File Protection (WFP) prevents the replacement of essential system files installed as part of Windows. Applications should not overwrite these files because they are used by the system and other applications. Protecting these files prevents application and operating system failures.
http://tinyurl.com/67jsl [MSDN]
Reply #114 from WinCustomize Forums Top
It's amazing that how opinioned people can be. Do people release when they release a VS made in the msstyle format that it is illegal? They have taken a piece of microsoft code, altered it, and then released it....thus violating MS initellictual property rights according to the US DMCA.

Why use a hacked piece of code when you can use a program that does it for you safely?

People use programs for almost everything ranging from word processing to firewalls, what makes a VS the exception?

And cygnus: I do wonder why WFP hasn't kicked in and replaced the uxtheme....or is it because most also rename the uxtheme in the dllcache directory?
Reply #115 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Frogboy you really need to hire a PR person. You dont see bill gates in forums yelling and cussing at "kids" who prefer linux to windows do you? You should act like the CEO of a company and just run your business! Act like a grown up instead of a baby who throws tantrums when things dont go his way or when others disagree with you.

You're 33 years old now so stop spewing hate about CUSTOMIZE.ORG and learn to listen to what others have to say. We the .msstyle authors don't want our works tampered with by your program without our consent. Each and everyone us are potential customers but we are turned off to your products by some of your comments. These same "kids" whom you seem to hate so much over at customize.org are all potential customers, learn to reach out instead of being hateful. If hate consumes you then nothing good can come of that in the long run.


HERE HERE!!



Reply #116 from WinCustomize Forums Top
You're 33 years old now so stop spewing hate about CUSTOMIZE.ORG and learn to listen to what others have to say. We the .msstyle authors don't want our works tampered with by your program without our consent. Each and everyone us are potential customers but we are turned off to your products by some of your comments. These same "kids" whom you seem to hate so much over at customize.org are all potential customers, learn to reach out instead of being hateful. If hate consumes you then nothing good can come of that in the long run.



Do as I say not as I as do? It's ok for the people at custo to speak poorly of stardock products and frogboy but when he defends his company and his products you attack him and then lock the thread. Talk about childish.

When you speak as the "we the .msstyle authors", you act as though you have some kind of authority or have a copyright on your work, but in all truth you are stealing MS work, changing parts of it, repackaging it, releasing it and calling it your own work. That be like me taking the Mona Lisa, changing the colors, maybe repositioning her head a little, change her smile, give her face a lift, change her hair style, and give the background a new look and then release it to the world and taking credit for it.
Reply #117 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Including the ability to convert *.msstyles files automatically with SkinStudio....I see two things happening here in this thread.

1. This ability in SkinStudio increases the variety of skins that a WindowBlinds user has available to them without having to resort to using a system hack or manually attempting to convert the file themselves as the majority of users aren't skinners. This additional source for skins would normally mean that WindowBlinds users would start visiting sites that offer *.msstyles skins since WC doesn't. So at Stardock's expense...I'm pretty sure that Stardock's coding staff doesn't work for free...WindowBlinds users get a greater variety of skins at no extra cost, other skinning sites get more traffic at no extra cost and *.msstyles skinners gain a new audience at no extra cost.

2. The staff at Customize.org has done a fine job in defending their *.msstyles skinners skins from being automatically ported by the WC community through their use of behavorial modification techniques....ie. you've clearly made up my mind that I have no reason to waste bandwidth on visiting your site.
Reply #118 from WinCustomize Forums Top
When longhorn comes out msstyles will no longer work. I guess THAT"S when this argument will finally end once and for all.
Reply #119 from JoeUser Forums Top
What makes you people think there wont be a work around for longhorn? You guys are hoping for no more competition eh? give it up already there are far more superior skinners for .msstyles than there are for .wb and thats the reason for wanting to port them over to .wb format. And if they are so illegal why are you porting them in the first place. Isnt that a bit hypocritical you hippe ASSCLOWNS!!
Reply #120 from WinCustomize Forums Top
whoa .. lots of facts in that post .. im impressed..
Reply #121 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hippe ASSCLOWNS!!


Are you implying that we're pot-smoking peace-loving donkey-riding clowns? Or is there some other meaning associated with this epithet that I am unaware of?
Reply #123 from WinCustomize Forums Top
im thinking he had some really weird birthday partys .. with all them arseclowns running around....
Reply #124 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think you are digging too deeply for a meaning that is obviously there. Does assclown have to be defined for you to understand?
Reply #125 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Does assclown have to be defined for you to understand?


Yes, unfortunately it has to be, you see, English is not my first language and as such I am unfamiliar with some of its nuances. I'm assuming it's some kind of a hyperbole, which for some reason combines a donkey and a respected memeber of the circus industry in order to produce an insulting epithet, which is supposed to, in turn, produce an equally witty and inherently violent response or intimidate the opposition, rendering them unable to participate in an exchange, and run for cover cowering? Am I on the right track?