I've seen enough

from Stardock Forums
Those of you complaining about not being able to order online should
consider yourselves blessed and leave it at that: the game isn't worth it.
The basic architecture of the game leaves so much to be desired,
particularly in its lack of scalability and macromanagement, that it would
be a waste of my time and insight to pelt the authors with suggestions; any
significant improvements would require a major rewrite to facilitate. I
refer you to the game's starbase paradigm as an example of both the best and
worst that this game has to offer; the concept was excellent but the
implementation results in micromanagement Hell. The same is true of most of
the game's interface; it almost completely lacks scalability.

For those of you who don't grok "scalability", start a game on the largest
map possible, colonize many dozens of planets and try to coordinate the
production and movement of hundreds of ships, and watch the "fun" begin
after one or two hundred turns. If I really wanted that kind of torture
there are plenty of old TBS board games in my closet - say, Fifth Frontier
War or even Stellar Conquest, to which this game owes its roots - that would
do the trick nicely. The advantage that a computer is SUPPOSED to bring to
strategy gaming is the avoidance of such drudgery and repetition, NOT the
ability to create ever greater amounts of it. I see none of that advantage
displayed in this game.

The alleged rave reviews this game has received actually says more about the
paucity of TBS games and the lack of experience and insight of gaming
industry reviewers than it does about GalCiv the game. The fact that its
competition, notably Master of Orion 3, is also very poorly imagined or
implemented is hardly a resounding recommendation for GalCiv. I may vote
the lesser of several evils in Presidential elections, but I'll be damned if
I'll make the same sort of choice in gaming any more. I'd rather do without
a TBS game entirely than subject myself to more of the self-immolation this
game represents. I've already uninstalled the game and modding tools, and
Stardock Central is next; I'd formally ask for a refund if I thought there
was a chance Stardock or Strategy First might be that honorable about it.

This is one veteran gamer who won't be recommending Galactic Civilizations
to anyone.

Mark Craig


~SDC~
1,411 views 36 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
whatever......
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
Those of you complaining about not being able to order online shouldconsider yourselves blessed and leave it at that: the game isn't worth it.
End of quote


I know you won't be responding to this posting because trolls like yourself hardly ever do, but I have to say that obviously they (who want to order online) obviously think it is worth it.

The advantage that a computer is SUPPOSED to bring tostrategy gaming is the avoidance of such drudgery and repetition, NOT theability to create ever greater amounts of it.
End of quote



Obviously you don't know anything about computers (this is a joke) because computers were supposed to help workplace productivity, too, but to anyone who's ever been inundated with emails that have little to no value from their coworkers (you know, the emails that are pages in quoted replies and the only contribution the coworker has is a little "I agree." at the bottom) can tell you. ;)

Seriously, I have to disagree with your assessment of what a computer is SUPPOSED to bring to a (strategy) game. No, computers aren't magical; they cannot guess what you want to do. They merely carry out your instructions as quickly as they can. For instance, they cannot guess what you want to do with a hundred ships; they can only move them quickly once you decide what to do with them.

The alleged rave reviews this game has received actually says more about thepaucity of TBS games and the lack of experience and insight of gamingindustry reviewers than it does about GalCiv the game.
End of quote


No, I think the rave reviews that GalCiv has received is more due to the fact that the reviewers actually enjoyed playing the game, and that the authors of the game continually strive to make the GalCiv a better and better gaming experience (which is more than I can say for you and your post). Gimme a break...

I'd formally ask for a refund if I thought therewas a chance Stardock or Strategy First might be that honorable about it.
End of quote


Now this remark is totally out of line. Where in the world did you get the impression that Stardock was anything less than honorable? Oh, I know where - from your complete ignorance about the way Stardock works. Unike yourself, I've seen Stardock grow from a little company writing applications for OS/2 (how long has it been now, ten years?) to their current state today (a little bit bigger company working on apps for Windows), and not once have I experienced anything that would lead me to believe that they would act in anything other than an honorable fashion.


This is one veteran gamer who won't be recommending Galactic Civilizationsto anyone.
End of quote


Good bye and good riddance. I don't think anyone needs your recommendations at this point in time...

Oh, and reviews cannot be "alleged." They are just reviews. (If you don't understand what I am saying, look up the definition and use the word correctly next time).

Bill
~SDC~
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am equally entitled to disagree with yours, macraig.


[Message Edited]
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
you know the funny thing is that macraig clearly hates playing on gigantic maps with billions of ships and production centres and blah blah blah 'scalability' blah blah blah, so what does he do when he wacks on a version of galciv....???

i mean i sympathise in a way because i don't like too much micromanagement myself. but that's why i use 'scalability' to play SMALL maps.....

silly me. i must be crazy...
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Wow.....small/medium map....game completed in a few hours....what a concept. ;)
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
People need to be a bit more friendly and supportive. Macraig raises some important problems that he has and gets accussed of trolling. Give him a chance. He raises some important points.


Macraig,
in answer to your issues, Galciv does indeed involve lots of management but ONLY on the larger galatic maps. The game is completely customisable and you can happily play on much smaller maps with much fewer planets. I would suggest you don't play anything bigger than medium as your post shows you don't like micro management.There are also three useful things you can do to greatly reduce micro management.

- The first of these is to use the planetary governors. There are 4 planetary governors and these allow you to set build queues. This stops you needing to look at planets and you can just focus on those few special important planets laving the vast majority for the governors to manage. Admittedly some method to load or save build queues would be nice, but the current system works well at reducing micromanagement.

- The second of these is to use the autobuild and way points for ships. You should set-up way points in space that you want all your new ships to move to. Change everything to autobuild, which means that the same ship type is constantly built without any need for you to go to the planet and change things. Next set the planet to auto-launch. This launchews new shisp and saves you neding to do this manually. Finally set the planet with the waypoint. With this technique all planets can build ships and automaticalyl send them where you need. You can then use the military governor to adjust the types of shisp being built globally whenever new ships types are discovered.

- The final technique is to use fleets. This greatly reduces the number of ships you need to manually move, as you only move the fleet once.

Galciv is not the micromanagement nightmare you paint. Just play smaller galaxies and be aware of what you don't like. Use rare habitation on set-up. This still leaves constructors, which admittedly are a bit of hassle on the management front. But you can happily just ignore them! Change your playing style so that you have none of the management tasks you dislike and the game will become much more fun for you.

I hope you do decide to give the game another chance and get enjoyment out of it.

paul.

~SDC~
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
For those of you who don't grok "scalability", start a game on the largestmap possible, colonize many dozens of planets and try to coordinate theproduction and movement of hundreds of ships, and watch the "fun" beginafter one or two hundred turns.
End of quote


Have you an example of a building empire game that haven't scability problems? Civilizations (I, II, III) could be at some time very tedious.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
How about M003, I am playing the game, and I like it, but it get tedious when you have to wait and wait and wait to build a ship, I like Galciv option of buying the ship when you need them.

Macraig if you give the game a chance you will change your opinion. ;)
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
People need to be a bit more friendly and supportive. Macraig raises some important problems that he has and gets accussed of trolling. Give him a chance. He raises some important points.
End of quote


Very difficult to do when he starts with:

Those of you complaining about not being able to order online shouldconsider yourselves blessed and leave it at that: the game isn't worth it.
End of quote


Had he started a little softer, the responses he received would have been a lot more hospitable. In his initial line he blasts a game most of us that post here, enjoy a great deal.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree with you solitair, Galciv may not be the greatest strategy game, but it is pretty damm good. I don't think Macraig should have instantily flame the game in his first sentence. I may be a strategy fan(both galciv and civ are still on my play list) but there some times when I just don't feel like starting up a game which will probably take like 3-6 hours to complete. Still when I'm in the mood for a good strategy game i know where to go. Also to help with the micromanagement I always click the tab at the bottom so I see all my planets and what is being built. I'm guessing we won't be hearing from Macraig for a VERY long time, hopefully he will find a strategy game he can play and won't complain about.

P.S. About asking Stardock for a refund, that is the most idiotic thing I've heard of in weeks. Stardock didn't do anything wrong, they didn't lie about the game, or released horribly bugged verisons of the game. I can understand about a refund over the whole URU Live thing at the Ubi.com forums, but at least they had a reasonable arguement, this is just like a little child whining for not getting his way.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
First, to reply to the accusations of trolling, yes, I failed to control my long accumulated frustration over this, and I lashed out; if you've never been guilty of the same, then by all means cast the first stone. Did I single out Wardell and co. to blame for a pervasive problem? Yes, because GalCiv happens to be the latest in a long string of what I consider failures at dealing with these issues and making "campaign" games truly playable. They've had the benefit of observing this singular failure in all its predecessors and learning from them, so they have less excuse than the developers of those earlier games, who didn't have the benefit of observing their own games in hindsight.

> Why do you play on gigantic galaxies if you don't
> like the micro management? Play on smaller galaxies.

I play on gigantic galaxies because I like to feel completely immersed; what I *don't* like is feeling overwhelmed... by micromanagement and lack of scalable planet, resource, and unit controls. I want to be able to still focus on the STRATEGY, not the mechanics. The fact that I'd have to play a small galaxy to avoid those things is an indication of the problem. I shouldn't have to choose. Why even provide the "gigantic" option if it's not playable? Master of Orion 3, for all its faults, is actually marginally better at this than Galactic Civilizations, though only barely. I have yet to meet a 4X computer game that efficiently handles scalability; you'd think
that the existence of networked multiplayer games and MMORPGs would naturally lead 4X developers to consider scalability, as must be done for software and hardware in enterprise networks, but oddly it hasn't even though every such game has these unplayable "gigantic" options.

> Of course you'll have micromanagement when you colonise hundreds
> of planets and build thousands of ships.

This is a non sequitur... one does not naturally follow from the other. It doesn't have to be this way, and I know exactly what game mechanisms need to exist to eliminate the problem. Would it require extra design and coding effort? Certainly, but if anyone actually made the effort and advertised it I'd be willing to pay dearly for the privilege of playing it. I've never developed a game from scratch, but at this point I suppose I can't rule it out, if even projects like Free Orion fail to produce a solution. I've been playing strategy games for over twenty-five years and 4X games almost exclusively for nearly twenty, so I have a few insights.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have one final unistall to perform, and this is my last comment on the matter. Brad Wardell and co. can take my comments to heart or leave them on the cutting-room floor, but from now on I'm adopting a "show me" attitude toward any new such games: I won't buy another unless the box cover SHOWS ME that this sort of problem has been resolved. I'm weary of spending $50 on every new 4X game only to find it's no better at epic scale than the last one.

Mark Craig
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Brother you are expecting too much bread for 1 buck. That is an old saying from where I come from. This is a game, this is not a NASA experiment. This is a game, no game will be ever perfect, because we the players all have different taste and priorities and desires and expectations, and you WILL NEVER find a game that will meet the expectations of ALL players, I have played over 300 games of GalCiv and I can tell you that is the best of its genre in the market. I have played many of the other ones and this is the best. Is it perfect? NO, of course not, but what lacks on perfection it is improved by the help of the developers. They are always listening and helping and fixing and sharing and this game has become like a big family to all of us. There is not such thing as a perfect family. But the devs are doing their best to try to satisfy everone.

So take your anger and disappointment and turn it upside down, come and play the game and submit suggestions on how to make it better, no some babycry, inmature child attitude, I deserve this, I expect this, you have to give me this. That is not the attitude, come and help us to make it better, don't come here with your big guns like you are the only player in this world, almighty know everything, best player ever. That is wrong. Come with the desire to improve and your opinion will be taken into consideration. Enuff said. >:(
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Well, if he isn't coming back, lets just let this thread die. No reason to make comments that won't do any good if the person who made them isn't going to respond. He is entitled to his opinions, and there is no reason to attack him for them. Let's just let the community of hundreds of people here that play and enjoy this game every day do the talking for us.
[Message Edited]
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
Why even provide the "gigantic" option if it's not playable?
...
has these unplayable "gigantic" options
End of quote


Yeah. Gigantic is unplayable!

:SURPRISED:

What?!! I've played almost 200 of them?! I guess it IS playable. ;p
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
Now if you'll excuse me, I have one final unistall to perform, and this is my last comment on the matter. Brad Wardell and co. can take my comments to heart or leave them on the cutting-room floor, but from now on I'm adopting a "show me" attitude toward any new such games: I won't buy another unless the box cover SHOWS ME that this sort of problem has been resolved. I'm weary of spending $50 on every new 4X game only to find it's no better at epic scale than the last one.
End of quote


Yes, you are uninstalling Stardock Central, but you can't fool me - I know you're dying to see what has transpired since your last post, and all you have to do is go to the web site... ;)

Anyways, I guess you're not such a bad troll, since you've actually come back to defend your points. Ugly troll, maybe, but not so bad after all. ;)

If you've been paying attention to any of the other threads here, though, you would see all of the GalCiv developers SHOWING you why the game is worth every penny you spend on it, because they are always striving to make GalCiv a better game, with suggestions being incorporated into the game almost daily.

Before you actually go away, drop by a few of the ongoing threads to see just how much they care about their product... and their customers.

Bill

~SDC~
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
Those of you complaining about not being able to order online shouldconsider yourselves blessed and leave it at that: the game isn't worth it.The basic architecture of the game leaves so much to be desired,particularly in its lack of scalability and macromanagement, that it wouldbe a waste of my time and insight to pelt the authors with suggestions; anysignificant improvements would require a major rewrite to facilitate. Irefer you to the game's starbase paradigm as an example of both the best andworst that this game has to offer; the concept was excellent but theimplementation results in micromanagement Hell. The same is true of most ofthe game's interface; it almost completely lacks scalability.For those of you who don't grok "scalability", start a game on the largestmap possible, colonize many dozens of planets and try to coordinate theproduction and movement of hundreds of ships, and watch the "fun" beginafter one or two hundred turns. If I really wanted that kind of torturethere are plenty of old TBS board games in my closet - say, Fifth FrontierWar or even Stellar Conquest, to which this game owes its roots - that woulddo the trick nicely. The advantage that a computer is SUPPOSED to bring tostrategy gaming is the avoidance of such drudgery and repetition, NOT theability to create ever greater amounts of it. I see none of that advantagedisplayed in this game.The alleged rave reviews this game has received actually says more about thepaucity of TBS games and the lack of experience and insight of gamingindustry reviewers than it does about GalCiv the game. The fact that itscompetition, notably Master of Orion 3, is also very poorly imagined orimplemented is hardly a resounding recommendation for GalCiv. I may votethe lesser of several evils in Presidential elections, but I'll be damned ifI'll make the same sort of choice in gaming any more. I'd rather do withouta TBS game entirely than subject myself to more of the self-immolation thisgame represents. I've already uninstalled the game and modding tools, andStardock Central is next; I'd formally ask for a refund if I thought therewas a chance Stardock or Strategy First might be that honorable about it.This is one veteran gamer who won't be recommending Galactic Civilizationsto anyone.
End of quote


Bud light presents Real men of Genius.

"Reeeeal men of geeeeeniouuuus!"

Today we salute YOU, Mr. Really Mad Internet Gamer

"Mr. Really mad internet gamer."

Only YOU can fully appreciate the mind-blowing tragedy of an unplayable game when in fact several hundreds have played it.

"Don't you TAAAAALK to me about perspective!! "

While others are too preoccupied with things like real life, playing a game they like, rather than whining about one they dont, you take your anger directly to the place where it will make the absolute least possible impact: An Internet discussion forum for those who actually play that game.

"Loggin' on now!"

Your unique eye for logic allows you to sling turds of doom every which way, and then brag about how you were RIGHT as soon as one of the pieces sticks to the wall ? regardless of how many dozens fell limply to the floor before that.

"Troll troll troll troll troll troll."
"See I told you sooooooo!! "


And if some idiot game columnist has the gall to not be as incensed as you are, you unleash your fury down upon him with all the tenacity and mercilessness of a rabid pit bull with a tender buttock locked in its jaws.

"Total anonymity! "

So keep clicking away, oh Marauder of the Mousepad. Because when the results you so desire finally come about years from now, you can say it was because YOU demanded it."

"Mr Really mad internet gamer....."

"How come they still haven't fired (fill in the blank) ?"



Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
Capt. Jack, me tankard's raised to ye!

Thought keelhaulin' was the end all, but ye've showed me the error o'me thinkin', I'm after believing the pen is mightier, after the purplin' ye've laid upon puir wee Macraig.

Turds of doom, indeed. :D
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Capt. Jack, me tankard's raised to ye!
End of quote


Thankee sai'

Turds of doom, indeed
End of quote


I'm laughing so hard now picturing the back up singers "Sling Sling sling sling" and the guy with the mullet "sling them turds of doom now."
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
Captain Jack...

Truly words of wisdom, sounds like he should be rubbing shoulders with "Mr. Too Much Cologne Wearer!" :)

Bill

~SDC~
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
This is a game, no game will be ever perfect
End of quote


Not true! Galactic Civilizations 100.0 is a perfect game! ;)
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
I have asked:
For those of you who don't grok "scalability", start a game on the largestmap possible, colonize many dozens of planets and try to coordinate theproduction and movement of hundreds of ships, and watch the "fun" beginafter one or two hundred turns.
End of quote
Have you an example of a building empire game that haven't scability problems? Civilizations (I, II, III) could be at some time very tedious.
End of quote


And in his answer we have:
I have yet to meet a 4X computer game that efficiently handles scalability;
End of quote

I guess this answers to my question. So Galciv is in the same bag that any 4X computer game.

Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
I think this is a great game. This is one hell of a design team too. Plus we should all be so lucky to get this kind of customer service when we eat out.
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
Captain JS, I salute you :HOT:

One of the most outstanding posts anywhere within these forums.
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
macraig:
The fact you posted here a second time seems to indicate you WANT to like the game.
I'd give it another chance; read more of the Strategy and Empire forums.
I think that one positive the game has is its ability to be the 4X YOU want it to be. With all the different variables like Galaxy size, Alignment, difficulty, etc, it can be quite addictive when you find your exact combo.